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Evolution Fairytale Forum > Origins > Miscellaneous
ikester7579
QUOTE
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


So far we have the earth, and it's completely covered with water. There is no atmosphere currently. Which means the surface of the water is exposed to space. Space exposure means two things.

1) Water is exposed to the vacuum of space.
2) Water is exposed to the absolute zero temp. of space.

The water does not float off into space because gravity holds it to the earth.

Water exposed to a vacuum will boil at any temperature. Water exposed to absolute zero will try to freeze. So these conditions actually brought the water to what is known as it triple point. Triple point is where the water is in it's three phases (solid, liquid, and gas) at the same time.

Now when hydrogen separates from the oxygen, it can become magnetized by the earths magnetic field. The hydrogen nucleus already has a magnetic field. It is believed that this magnetizing took place and created a blanket like cover around the earth that God's word call a firmament.

Because the earth's magnetic field is attracting the hydrogen molecules because the nucleus has a magnetic field of it's own. When they came together on the surface of the water. A polarization took place. This polarization made the firmament (crystalline canopy) become what is known today as a electromagnet. Why? It requires the constant magnetic field of the earth to work, which means it was not a self sustaining magnet.

The sudden polarization to form the magnet, created such pressure within the firmament, that it phased the hydrogen molecules into what known as metallic hydrogen. When hydrogen phases into a metallic state, it becomes a superconductor. Phasing into metallic hydrogen, then into superconductor, allows the the firmament (crystalline canopy) to become semi-solid. Solid enough to sustain it's position above the earth because it's metallic state plus being a superconductor, has allow it's magnetic strength to be strong enough to do this.

The formation of our atmosphere:

QUOTE
Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Dividing the waters above (the firmament) from the water below creates another vacuum. A vacuum between the firmament, and the water that is receding. Kinda like when you take a syringe and pull back quickly and create a vacuum within the syringe. The water going down, while the canopy stays up is creating a vacuum between the two.

QUOTE
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.


So the water starts boiling again. This time as the molecules separate (H2O turns into gas), it creates our atmosphere. The atmosphere firmament is called a heaven because it will be sustaining life. So far we have two firmaments. One that surrounds the earth like a blanket. And one that is our atmosphere.

The third firmament (our solar system):

QUOTE
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


These are all things contained within our solar system. Things created to keep time just like the word says it will. In which science now knows that it does.

The forth firmament (things beyond our solar system):

QUOTE
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.


We know these things beyond our solar system exist because with our telescopes we can see them.
chance
Ice on an airless earth – while ‘in theory’ ice should be stable, the proximity of the surface, and inevitable formation of an atmosphere under the ice, it would then be much too warm (subject to the distance of the ice sphere from the earth of course)

Ice in space - The behaviour of water ice in space poses some problems. When in the shadow of the earth the temperature will be exposed to temperatures of round about 5 to 2.7 Kelvin (that’s very cold). However on the sunlit side, a typical object could reach about 280 Kelvin, perilously close to the melting point of water of 273 Kelvin.

Any water ice in the vicinity of a Martian orbit or less (it might be a bit further out) will begin to outgas like a comet, (ice is not particularly transparent and there will be localised heating). (there is also the radiated heat from the earth to consider) Comets stop out-gassing water between Mars and Jupiter (from memory).




However this is the biggest problem:

Orbital mechanics – a perfect sphere of Ice (or one that matches the shape of the earth) that surrounds the earth is an inherently unstable configuration, it’s a “Dyson Sphere”. Dyson Spheres are not stable, even in isolation, gravity will not keep it in position, it will crash, (especially quickly when one considers the effects of the moons gravity).

Imaging trying to insert a cylindrical magnet inside an iron pipe, with an air gap of only a few millimetres. The slightest deviation from centre, and, “click”.
ikester7579
QUOTE(chance @ Apr 11 2007, 05:08 PM)
Ice on an airless earth – while ‘in theory’ ice should be stable, the proximity of the surface, and inevitable formation of an atmosphere under the ice, it would then be much too warm (subject to the distance of the ice sphere from the earth of course)

Ice in space - The behaviour of water ice in space poses some problems. When in the shadow of the earth the temperature will be exposed to temperatures of round about 5 to 2.7 Kelvin (that’s very cold).  However on the sunlit side, a typical object could reach about 280 Kelvin, perilously close to the melting point of water of 273 Kelvin. 


Sun was not created yet. And ice is not what the canopy's final result was either. Metallic hydrogen was being held together by the earth's Magnetic field, not by it being frozen. So temperature was not a problem.

QUOTE
Any water ice in the vicinity of a Martian orbit or less (it might be a bit further out) will begin to outgas like a comet, (ice is not particularly transparent and there will be localised heating).   (there is also the radiated heat from the earth to consider) Comets stop out-gassing water between Mars and Jupiter (from memory).
However this is the biggest problem:

Orbital mechanics – a perfect sphere of Ice (or one that matches the shape of the earth) that surrounds the earth is an inherently unstable configuration, it’s a “Dyson Sphere”.  Dyson Spheres are not stable, even in isolation, gravity will not keep it in position, it will crash, (especially quickly when one considers the effects of the moons gravity).


I never claimed this to be a Dyson Shere. Or anything that works in that way.

QUOTE
Imaging trying to insert a cylindrical magnet inside an iron pipe, with an air gap of only a few millimetres.  The slightest deviation from centre, and, “click”.
*



The iron pipe, and magnet example are not correct or exact examples of what is being spoke of here. Why? Both the canopy and the earth have a magnetic field which involves attraction (opposite poles), and repelling (same poles). Then you have the rotation of each. And the air caught in-between. In your iron pipe and magnet example, neither of these examples are met to even come close to the comparative example in the O.P.

Then when the moon is added, the gravity of the orbiting moon would actually keep the canopy orbit around the earth in check. Just as today the moon gravity and orbit keeps the earth's tilt on it's axis in check.

Example: The moon's orbit pulls upon the canopy a little in one direct, then in the other as it orbits. The moon's orbit speed around the earth, plus the earth's rotation and the canopy rotation. Would have the moon's gravity pulling on the canopy, all the way around, about twice a day (according to the speed of canopy rotation which is not known). Given that the speed of the rotation of the canopy is either the same as the earth, or near to it.

So we have two magnetic forces:

1) The earth.
2) The canopy.

And we have two gravity forces:

1) The earth.
2) The moon.

And because the canopy is in orbit around the sun (when the sun was created) the same speed as the earth. The suns pull upon both the canopy, and earth, would be the same. And would not affect the canopy's orbit around the earth. So the gravity of the sun does not become a factor in harming the orbit of the canopy. But because the earth and canopy move at the same speed around the sun. The sun actually becomes one of the things helping it stay in place.

Example: If the sun's gravity pulled upon the earth, but not the canopy. The canopy would be slung out into space which would make it collide with the earth upon it's creation.

So what is the difference between the iron pipe magnet example, and the example in the O.P.?

1) Neither the pipe, or the magnet is a superconductor.
2) Only one is magnetized.
3) Neither are semi-solid.
etc....

If you wanted to come close to use the iron pipe and magnet as an example. You would have to make the pipe into an electro-magnet. And the magnet put inside would have to be placed in the center of the pipe where the poles intersect.
chance
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 12 2007, 02:25 PM)
chance>
Ice on an airless earth – while ‘in theory’ ice should be stable, the proximity of the surface, and inevitable formation of an atmosphere under the ice, it would then be much too warm (subject to the distance of the ice sphere from the earth of course)

Ice in space - The behaviour of water ice in space poses some problems. When in the shadow of the earth the temperature will be exposed to temperatures of round about 5 to 2.7 Kelvin (that’s very cold).  However on the sunlit side, a typical object could reach about 280 Kelvin, perilously close to the melting point of water of 273 Kelvin. 

Ikster>
a. Sun was not created yet.
b. And ice is not what the canopy's final result was either. Metallic hydrogen was being held together by the earth's Magnetic field, not by it being frozen. So temperature was not a problem.
(my paragraphing)

Re.a ok
Re.b not ice? What are you proposing the canopy is made from?
Re.c my understanding of ‘metallic’ Hydrogen is that it requires immense pressures, like that in the centre of a large planet, i.e. Jupiter or Saturn. From the wiki we get
QUOTE
In March of 1996, however, a group of scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory reported that they had serendipitously produced, for about a microsecond and at temperatures of thousands of kelvins and pressures of over a million atmospheres (>100 GPa), the first identifiably metallic hydrogen
. I can find no reference to indicate that metallic hydrogen is magnetic.


QUOTE
chance>
Any water ice in the vicinity of a Martian orbit or less (it might be a bit further out) will begin to outgas like a comet, (ice is not particularly transparent and there will be localised heating).   (there is also the radiated heat from the earth to consider) Comets stop out-gassing water between Mars and Jupiter (from memory).
However this is the biggest problem:

Orbital mechanics – a perfect sphere of Ice (or one that matches the shape of the earth) that surrounds the earth is an inherently unstable configuration, it’s a “Dyson Sphere”.  Dyson Spheres are not stable, even in isolation, gravity will not keep it in position, it will crash, (especially quickly when one considers the effects of the moons gravity).

Ikster>
I never claimed this to be a Dyson Shere. Or anything that works in that way.


correct you never claimed it, but IMO it is what it appears to be, i.e. a hollow sphere, surrounding a solid sphere.


QUOTE

Imaging trying to insert a cylindrical magnet inside an iron pipe, with an air gap of only a few millimetres.  The slightest deviation from centre, and, “click”.


Ikster>
a. The iron pipe, and magnet example are not correct or exact examples of what is being spoke of here <moved> In your iron pipe and magnet example, neither of these examples are met to even come close to the comparative example in the O.P. Why?
b. Both the canopy and the earth have a magnetic field which involves attraction (opposite poles), and repelling (same poles).
c. Then you have the rotation of each.
d. And the air caught in-between.
(my paragraphing)

Re.a I think the principle of “off centre” will prove correct, in the magnet as in a Dyson sphere.

Re.b you can try the same experiment with the iron pipe also being a magnet, and the same result become apparent, i.e. unless perfect distance can be maintained, the slightest ‘off set’ will result in a run-away condition. Pull apart any old DC generator, remove the bearings and replace them with something soft, see if you can maintain the air gap between rotor and stator, “can’t be done”!
Basically the Dyson sphere is a ‘positive feed back’ system, it is not self correcting.

Re.c rotation will have no effect on mutual gravity, the gyroscopic stability is only inline with the axis of rotation, it wont prevent ether sphere from changing there relative positions to one another in any axis. All that will happen is the relative alignment between the two will be maintained, and they come crashing together.

Re.d The air will make no difference at all (possibly worse if rotational speeds are different) imagine a steel ball inside a tennis ball, no matter what air pressure you pump inside the tennis ball, the steel ball will rattle around with no discernable difference.





QUOTE
Then when the moon is added, the gravity of the orbiting moon would actually keep the canopy orbit around the earth in check. Just as today the moon gravity and orbit keeps the earth's tilt on it's axis in check.

Example: The moon's orbit pulls upon the canopy a little in one direct, then in the other as it orbits. The moon's orbit speed around the earth, plus the earth's rotation and the canopy rotation. Would have the moon's gravity pulling on the canopy, all the way around, about twice a day (according to the speed of canopy rotation which is not known). Given that the speed of the rotation of the canopy is either the same as the earth, or near to it.

So we have two magnetic forces:

1) The earth.
2) The canopy.

And we have two gravity forces:

1) The earth.
2) The moon.


Oh my word no! The moon causes the centre of gravity of the earth moon pair to be displaced from the centre of the earth, (From memory about ¾ of the earth radius. The earth moon pair is more accurately described as a binary planetary system because the earth moon difference in mass is not that great, when compared to other planetary systems) The sphere will be trying to centre itself around that point, not the geo-centre. Once the offset is established there is no self correcting influence, the sphere/earth gravity will take hold at the nearest point, nothing can prevent the inevitable collision.


QUOTE
And because the canopy is in orbit around the sun (when the sun was created) the same speed as the earth. The suns pull upon both the canopy, and earth, would be the same. And would not affect the canopy's orbit around the earth. So the gravity of the sun does not become a factor in harming the orbit of the canopy. But because the earth and canopy move at the same speed around the sun. The sun actually becomes one of the things helping it stay in place.

Example: If the sun's gravity pulled upon the earth, but not the canopy. The canopy would be slung out into space which would make it collide with the earth upon it's creation.


The sun (which I have ignored till this point) will have the same effect as the moon, only to a much lesser degree.


QUOTE
So what is the difference between the iron pipe magnet example, and the example in the O.P.?

1) Neither the pipe, or the magnet is a superconductor.
2) Only one is magnetized.
3) Neither are semi-solid.
etc....


re.1 I cant see how being a superconducting sphere (which required very low temperature) helps your idea, where is the current being generated from? You seem to be implying that you have a hollow sphere of superconducting metallic hydrogen (I think), somehow under great pressure. I just cant work out what you are proposing the canopy to be made of.

QUOTE
If you wanted to come close to use the iron pipe and magnet as an example. You would have to make the pipe into an electro-magnet. And the magnet put inside would have to be placed in the center of the pipe where the poles intersect.


yep that will work just as well as permanent magnets, however what you are proposing is that system without the bearings! Gravity wins every time.
ikester7579
But gravity is not the same as magnetic attraction is it? And gravity does play a role in this. Can how gravity actually works be simulated with the iron pipe and magnet example? Last I heard, science is not even sure what gravity is.
chance
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 13 2007, 01:08 PM)
a. But gravity is not the same as magnetic attraction is it?
b. And gravity does play a role in this.
c. Can how gravity actually works be simulated with the iron pipe and magnet example?
d. Last I heard, science is not even sure what gravity is.
(my paragraphing)

Re.a No. But as gravity is a relatively weak force, I had to use an analogy that would produce a good mental picture (and easily conducted experiment) of how attractive forces work. What the attractive forces are, is not really important, the difference in a real experiment will produce one of different rates of closure between the two attracting masses.

Re.b Indeed. And if we are talking about a solid sphere surrounded by a hollow sphere, all forces, magnetic, and gravitational are in perfect balance for our theoretical symmetrical starting point. But upset that that perfect starting point and there is no force in the universe that can have any self correcting influence, it really is, “what goes up must come down!”

Re.c Yes, absolutely. We are simulating a 3D system (world + Dyson sphere), in which an imbalance can occur in any of the 3 axis. The magnet example obviously can only work in 2 axis, and you are using the 3 neutral axis to insert the magnet into the hollow pipe. The experiment only shows the ‘principle’ of ‘Dyson mechanics’, all that is needed is to carry that principle across from 2 axis to 3.

Re.d True, but the nature of gravity (how it behaves) is well understood and described by science. Its nature is 100% predictable.
ikester7579
When NASA trains people to work in space. Where do they do the training? In a pool full of water correct? So we have one side of the Crystalline Canopy (metallic hydrogen) exposed to space. A complete vacuum. Then we have the other side that contains air under pressure (barometric pressure).

To move the canopy suddenly in any direction, what would have to move in order for the canopy to do this? The air on one side would have to move to the other. Is the process immedient, or does it resist this movement?

So our atmosphere acts as a shock absorber not letting the canopy go in any direction to quickly just like water in a pool will do the same thing. The slowing down of movement actually keeps the canopy from moving in any direction to fast that would not be recoverable.

The earth's rotation being faster than the canopy would have an outward push upon it as the lower level winds push up. It is also said the the atmosphere was twice the barometric pressure it is now (the weight of the canopy caused this). This would mean that there would be even more resistance from the air against movement of the canopy.

QUOTE
Re.d True, but the nature of gravity (how it behaves) is well understood and described by science. Its nature is 100% predictable.


But it's 100% predictability is not applied to where the decaying orbit of the moon is concerned. In fact it's ignored. There is one law of gravity that says that an object pull quadruples as it gets closer to another object with gravity. Which proves the moon cannot get to close to the earth before the gravity pull upon it makes it collide by pulling it out of orbit.

Which would mean that the orbit of the moon, plus it's age and decaying orbit. Has the same problem as the canopy if these problems are not ignored.
jason78
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 12 2007, 08:08 PM)
But gravity is not the same as magnetic attraction is it? And gravity does play a role in this. Can how gravity actually works be simulated with the iron pipe and magnet example? Last I heard, science is not even sure what gravity is.
*



Gravity is a distortion of space-time. http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/warp_space_041020.html

The effects of gravity that are observed hold very well with Einstien's predictions. I know that you know this as you wouldn't be able to critique Dr Humphrey's biblical cosmology without an understanding of this area of physics.
chance
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 17 2007, 11:50 AM)
a. When NASA trains people to work in space. Where do they do the training? In a pool full of water correct?
b. So we have one side of the Crystalline Canopy (metallic hydrogen) exposed to space. A complete vacuum. Then we have the other side that contains air under pressure (barometric pressure).
c. To move the canopy suddenly in any direction, what would have to move in order for the canopy to do this? The air on one side would have to move to the other. Is the process immedient, or does it resist this movement?
d. So our atmosphere acts as a shock absorber not letting the canopy go in any direction to quickly just like water in a pool will do the same thing. The slowing down of movement actually keeps the canopy from moving in any direction to fast that would not be recoverable.
e. The earth's rotation being faster than the canopy would have an outward push upon it as the lower level winds push up. It is also said the the atmosphere was twice the barometric pressure it is now (the weight of the canopy caused this). This would mean that there would be even more resistance from the air against movement of the canopy.
(my paragraphing)

Re.a yes.

Re.b pressurised air, under frozen metallic hydrogen, Ok. From the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen we find that metallic hydrogen requires
QUOTE
an immense pressure of two-hundred and fifty thousand atmospheres (~ 25 GPa), <snip> produced, for about a microsecond and at temperatures of thousands of kelvins and pressures of over a million atmospheres (>100 GPa), the first identifiably metallic hydrogen
You cant have a material that requires intense pressure simultaneously with being frozen.

Re.c I would think that movement of air under a solid canopy, would have a ripple effect, the pressure wave would move at the speed of sound (pressure). The initial pressure point would have the most effect and would then dissipate.

Re.d No this just wont happen. Like a ball bearing inside a tennis ball, either is free to move about the other (no matter which one is anchored) and no matter what air pressure is inside the tennis ball. The overriding force is gravity, any air will just slow any relative movement between the two. There air cannot support the canopy.

Re.e An increase in pressure between earth and canopy will not be like some hovercraft cushioning effect, it will be like a ball bearing inside a tennis ball, the air will just squeeze past.

QUOTE
chance>
Re.d True, but the nature of gravity (how it behaves) is well understood and described by science. Its nature is 100% predictable.

ikester7579>
a. But it's 100% predictability is not applied to where the decaying orbit of the moon is concerned. In fact it's ignored.
b. There is one law of gravity that says that an object pull quadruples as it gets closer to another object with gravity. Which proves the moon cannot get to close to the earth before the gravity pull upon it makes it collide by pulling it out of orbit.
c. Which would mean that the orbit of the moon, plus it's age and decaying orbit. Has the same problem as the canopy if these problems are not ignored.
(my paragraphing)

Re.a not sure what you mean here, I would contend however that any relative motion between 2 orbiting bodies is predictable with orbital mechanics.

Re.b correct, the inverse square law. re “pull out of orbit” - No, the moon or any satellite for that matter, can orbit at any altitude (atmosphere notwithstanding) with a proportional increase in orbital speed. There is no altitude cut off point.

Re.c the moon is not in a decaying orbit. As it retreats from the earth it proportionally slows in orbital speed (law of conservation of energy).
ikester7579
QUOTE(chance @ Apr 18 2007, 05:50 PM)
(my paragraphing)

Re.a yes.

Re.b pressurised air, under frozen metallic hydrogen, Ok.  From the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen we find that metallic hydrogen requires   You cant have a material that requires intense pressure simultaneously with being frozen.


At what temperature does matallic hydrogen freeze to a solid?

QUOTE
Re.c I would think that movement of air under a solid canopy, would have a ripple effect, the pressure wave would move at the speed of sound (pressure).  The initial pressure point would have the most effect and would then dissipate.


The other thing is, I don't believe that it was a solid shell. I believe it was semi solid which means it was flexible. So when something pulls upon it, only that part moves while the rest stays in place.

QUOTE
Re.d  No this just wont happen.  Like a ball bearing inside a tennis ball, either is free to move about the other (no matter which one is anchored) and no matter what air pressure is inside the tennis ball.  The overriding force is gravity, any air will just slow any relative movement between the two. There air cannot support the canopy.


Question: How do fixed orbits happen for satelites? Their orbit is the same speed as the rotation from the earth. And they are the correct distance from the earth for this to happen. So if a satelite can acheive this just out side of our atmosphere, why cannot the canopy?

The other thing is. The canopy not being diretly connect to the earth means that outside gravity forces may have a rotation affect on it. Like the moon pulling it. If so, it would be spinning in the opposite direction.

QUOTE
Re.e An increase in pressure between earth and canopy will not be like some hovercraft cushioning effect, it will be like a ball bearing inside a tennis ball, the air will just squeeze past.


The tennis ball does not contain 7 miles of atmosphere inside it.

QUOTE
Re.a not sure what you mean here, I would contend however that any relative motion between 2 orbiting bodies is predictable with orbital mechanics.

Re.b correct, the inverse square law.  re “pull out of orbit” - No, the moon or any satellite for that matter, can orbit at any altitude (atmosphere notwithstanding) with a proportional increase in orbital speed.  There is no altitude cut off point.

Re.c the moon is not in a decaying orbit.  As it retreats from the earth it proportionally slows in orbital speed (law of conservation of energy).
*



This link will give you a better idea of what I am speaking of: http://www.yecheadquarters.org/earth.2.html
ikester7579
QUOTE(jason78 @ Apr 18 2007, 02:54 PM)
Gravity is a distortion of space-time.  http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/warp_space_041020.html

The effects of gravity that are observed hold very well with Einstien's predictions.  I know that you know this as you wouldn't be able to critique Dr Humphrey's biblical cosmology without an understanding of this area of physics.
*



Never read Dr Humphrey's stuff. And the link you provide for some reason does not work.

I try to keep an open mind about what I am researching or just pondering. In this way I don't have preconcluded ideas about how creation works even before I ponder or read it. Reading to many books that have ideas that only support one view, clouds the mind into one way thinking which can block divine inspiration. This is also why I do not hold to any denomination. I leave my mind open to where ever I'm lead.

I learn as I go, I find it more interesting.

I do pick up books to read, and read other webistes that are for and against creation. But I try not to get so evolved in a subject that it keeps me from thinking outside the box when pondering it. To keep your mind focused only on one way to think about something, is like putting your mind in a box and never letting it out. I do not want to be the product of everyone else's ideas.
chance
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 19 2007, 11:50 AM)
chance>
Re.a yes.

Re.b pressurised air, under frozen metallic hydrogen, Ok.  From the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen we find that metallic hydrogen requires  You cant have a material that requires intense pressure simultaneously with being frozen.

ikester7579>
At what temperature does matallic hydrogen freeze to a solid?


Cant under ‘normal’ conditions, when Metallic Hydrogen is referred to as a solid, they meant it is behaving like a solid, if the pressure was released it will revert to it’s non liquid or solid form practical instantly.
You will find a similar description of the earths core.
From the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_core#Core
QUOTE
Seismic measurements show that the core is divided into two parts, a solid inner core with a radius of ~1220 km and a liquid outer core extending beyond it to a radius of ~3400 km. The solid inner core was discovered in 1936 by Inge Lehmann and is generally believed to be composed primarily of iron and some nickel. Some have argued that the inner core may be in the form of a single iron crystal.[3][4] The liquid outer core surrounds the inner core and is believed to be composed of iron mixed with nickel and trace amounts of lighter elements.


As the temperature is rising the close we get to the centre, the core changes from liquid to solid??? How can that happen if it’s getting hotter? Should turn into a gas correct? It is the incredible pressure that keeps this from happening (you could think of this pressure as rasing the boiling point). So the Metallic Hydrogen, not the earths core is really a solid in the sense that you or I use the term for material under ‘normal’ conditions.

QUOTE
chance>
Re.c I would think that movement of air under a solid canopy, would have a ripple effect, the pressure wave would move at the speed of sound (pressure).  The initial pressure point would have the most effect and would then dissipate.

ikester7579>
The other thing is, I don't believe that it was a solid shell. I believe it was semi solid which means it was flexible. So when something pulls upon it, only that part moves while the rest stays in place.


Still won’t help I’m afraid, provided the mass stays intact, there must be a centre of gravity (some average point), the effect of some part of the sphere being displace, will, no matter how small, move the centre of gravity. One there is imbalance, it’s all over, it’s just a matter of time, the cumulative effect of acceleration, due to gravity seals it’s fate.

There might be an argument where ‘droplets are pulled from the inner surface’, but I’m not confident that will save a Dyson sphere.


QUOTE
chance>
Re.d  No this just wont happen.  Like a ball bearing inside a tennis ball, either is free to move about the other (no matter which one is anchored) and no matter what air pressure is inside the tennis ball.  The overriding force is gravity, any air will just slow any relative movement between the two. There air cannot support the canopy.

ikester7579>
a. Question: How do fixed orbits happen for satelites? Their orbit is the same speed as the rotation from the earth. And they are the correct distance from the earth for this to happen. So if a satelite can acheive this just out side of our atmosphere, why cannot the canopy?

b. The other thing is. The canopy not being diretly connect to the earth means that outside gravity forces may have a rotation affect on it. Like the moon pulling it. If so, it would be spinning in the opposite direction.


re.a Firstly one centre of gravity is not superimposed over the other (a significant difference), satellite and primary orbit around their common centre. A fixed satellite is not actually fixed, it is orbiting around the earth at the same speed the earth is rotation (geosynchronous orbit, 42,164 km (26,200 miles)). An observer on the earth would see the satellite as remaining in a fixed location in the sky. The Dyson sphere centre of gravity is [I]inside[/] the “common centre” of the mutual gravitational pull of the earth and sphere. It’s a bit difficult to explain – I’ll see if can find an analogy for you.

re.b True, the sphere is free to move, and some outside influence could indeed start it rotating in any axis. If the system were in perfect balance, you could theoretically have the sphere rotating at right angles (any angle), at practically any speed you can imagine.


QUOTE
chance>
Re.e An increase in pressure between earth and canopy will not be like some hovercraft cushioning effect, it will be like a ball bearing inside a tennis ball, the air will just squeeze past.

ikester7579>
The tennis ball does not contain 7 miles of atmosphere inside it.


Wont matter, fill the tennis ball with water or mercury, if you like, the result will be the same.

Ill take a look at the link you provided, and reply to it later.
ikester7579
Here is the process in which air can support the canopy.
user posted image

If the canopy were turning in the opposite direction to the earth, then this would be even more so as these winds would be stirred up even more. The circular motion of the wind going higher in the atmosphere, then lower. Would act as air cushions keeping the canopy from colliding with the earth.
chance
ikester7579, I wrote this before your post #13 it addresses the viability of metallic hydrogen.
From your own website the link to metallic hydrogen, reveals the difficulty of manufacturing such a substance:
QUOTE
The long-sought goal of turning the element into a metal, it has been predicted, would require pressure close to that found at the center of the Earth

They submitted hydrogen gas to just such pressure, but the element remained unchanged. "It seems," says Cornell's Arthur Ruoff, "that the pressure required for this transition is higher than previously thought

Last year liquid metallic hydrogen was created for less than a microsecond by scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. This was done by submitting hydrogen to both high pressure and high temperature using a two-stage gas gun


And on it goes, culminating in:
QUOTE
The Nature article notes, "Calculations suggest that depairing (destruction of the molecular bond) should occur around 340 GPa, accompanied by the formation of an alkali metal at this pressure or at substantially higher pressures." But the researchers found that solid hydrogen showed no signs of looking like a metal at pressures of up to 342 GPa. (A GPa is a gigapascal, a measurement of atmospheric pressure, and is equal to 10,000 times the pressure at the Earth's surface. The pressure at the center of the Earth is about 361 GPa, or more than four million times surface pressure


As you can see the properties of metallic hydrogen make it the most unstable of states and only being able to be produce for microseconds in the most extreme of environments.





Moving back on the Dyson sphere stability problems, I hope I have been able to convince you that such a configuration is an unstable system. Unlike a body in orbit, it is balancing two forces (Gravity and inertia), the Dyson sphere is missing a fundamental force to balance the Gravity.

Dare I mention a solution? Please don’t make me regret suggesting this ok let me tell you in advance that this won’t work either, but what you need are bearings to physically hold the sphere in place, obviously some physical connection is out of the question, but there are magnetic fields!

(there are may IFs, in this Ok) If the Dyson sphere were magnetic at two ends, and the earth had “the mother of all magnetic fields” (I’m talking a field so strong it’ll rip the fillings right out of your mouth, magnitude sort of strong), you could conceivably (well not actually) balance the sphere between the N – S poles of the earth (for a while).

What would this configuration look like from space? Well first the Dyson sphere will not be centred! The moon will still deflect it, and pull it around much like it does the oceans (so the sphere will need to be much bigger than you have been indicating, well outside of the atmosphere). To a lesser degree the pressure of light (and particles) from the sun will also be trying to push the sphere out of the solar system (did not mention that one before did I. The Dyson sphere is effectively a very large solar sail, transparent it may be but it wont be perfectly transparent, especially where the light hits the surface at less than right angles). It will look very weird.
chance
ikester7579, the Coriolis effect (and this is subject I a most familia with during my inertial navigation days) has nothing to do with the atmosphere having a cushioning/supporting effect.

The Coriolis effect is only apparent on rotating bodies (it is a side effect of the conservation of momentum), if some mass is moving north or south, that mass will begin to move (relative to the surface) East or West (you get the force in any direction but it’s easier to visualise N – S). The most obvious consequence of this effect is on the atmosphere, causing the circular features.

Why cant the atmosphere support a Dyson sphere?. For air to resist a force it need to be bound (compressed, confined), in a hovercraft this is done by pressurising the area under the skirt, the other method is to change the volume, like in a piston in a cylinder. In each of these cases the mass (hovercraft, piston) are manipulated by a restriction on the volume (a boundary) the air is contained on one side to push the mass back the way it came from.

In a Dyson sphere there is no boundary to contain the air, it will simply be squeezed away to the other side of the world (just like a piston with non sealing piston rings, or a hovercraft with a hole in it’s skirt). You need a specific opposing force in the direction of sphere, and without a sealing chamber, the air is free to get out of the way. The ‘air gap’ volume remains a constant, thus no opposing force. At best there will be an initial resistance due to the speed of sound as the air cant get out of the way quick enough, but that’s all.
ikester7579
Maybe I need to get a little more basic. The earth spins at 1,000 miles mph at the equator. A solid, or semi solid sphere that either spins slower, or even opposite direction, would cause the wind to blow in a upward direction pushing outward on the sphere as a whole.

If a section of the sphere comes closer, this pushing away effect would increase because the two surfaces spinning at different speeds, come closer would increase the turbulence between the two surfaces. This increased turbulence actually would increase the barometric pressure in that section.

This would work very much like a bag type vacuum cleaner. You turn it on and the air turbulence caused by the fan, inflates the bag (The bag would be the representation of the canopy). If you try to compress the bag, you will find that it resists your compression. If you were able to get it to build up a psi pressure about 14.5. You would have the pressure we have today. If you double that to 29 psi. Then you would have the pressure when the canopy existed. A bag inflated to 29 psi is not easy to compress.

To simulate your tennis ball idea the right way. You would first take the ball bearing that you place inside to represent the earth. And place a few small notches. Why? The earth's surface is neither flat or smooth. After you insert the ball bearing into the tennis ball. You would have to figure out a way to make the ball inside spin at 1,000 mph. Once you do this, you then fill the tennis ball with 29 psi air. Then you would subject both to zero gravity (simulation of space). Then you would spin the inside ball to 1,000 mph and see if it would hold center in zero gravity.

Now because both objects will float in zero gravity. And now you are adding wind turbulence. How hard do you think it would be to maintain a center while both objects can float weightlessly? The reason you cannot comprehend this is because your mind is adding weight in a weightless environment (our solar system). This is why astronauts are taught in water how things will work in space. Water simulates a weightless environment.

Another example: Take a hand held mixer, a balloon, small tube (like a small straw) and some water. Slip the end of the balloon over the mixer. Fill the balloon with water through the straw to about 3/4 full. Make sure the end of the mixer is in the water. Now turn it on and you will see what outward force from water turbulence does to the balloon is the same that was done to the canopy.
chance
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 20 2007, 02:20 PM)
Maybe I need to get a little more basic. The earth spins at 1,000 miles mph at the equator. A solid, or semi solid sphere that either spins slower, or even opposite direction, would cause the wind to blow in a upward direction pushing outward on the sphere as a whole.


lets assume this were true – What goes up must come down, what would happen, is vortices would be created in the air gap. There would be no net gain in one direction more than another (for every action there is an equal and opposite re-action). Even if one could postulate some upwards force, it would be applied on the opposite side of the sphere also, again giving no net gain. The same effect could be demonstrated by pressurising a sphere, in the ball bearing/tennis ball experiment, i.e. because there is no net gain in force in any particular direction the air has zero effect in being able to hold the sphere away from the surface of the earth, all the forces cancel out.

QUOTE
If a section of the sphere comes closer, this pushing away effect would increase because the two surfaces spinning at different speeds, come closer would increase the turbulence between the two surfaces. This increased turbulence actually would increase the barometric pressure in that section.


You would certainly get some local turbulence (and considerable drag on the inside surface of the sphere), but no direction of the force in the upwards direction. A swirling motion is well, swirling, the sum vector of the forces is in all directions. Imagine the ball bearing in the tennis ball again, Fix the bearing in space and fix the ball at an equidistant from the bearing (imaginary forces), now spin the ball up to speed, and release the force that holds the ball, it will drop like a brick. You could perform this experiment with any fluid (or a vacuum) and you will get the same result – this is because the fluid volume is constant, and all the ‘fluid forces’ are at a null. The only time there will be resistance to the sphere collision is when the surfaces are very close together and the air cannot move out of the way.

QUOTE
This would work very much like a bag type vacuum cleaner. You turn it on and the air turbulence caused by the fan, inflates the bag (The bag would be the representation of the canopy). If you try to compress the bag, you will find that it resists your compression. If you were able to get it to build up a psi pressure about 14.5. You would have the pressure we have today. If you double that to 29 psi. Then you would have the pressure when the canopy existed. A bag inflated to 29 psi is not easy to compress.


The bag of a vacuum cleaner is inflated because the air on the outside of the bag is un-pressurised (has nothing to do with turbulence).
Yes the bag would resist finger pressure, but it is important to understand that every surface of the bag would also be pressurised, what you need to focus your attention on is the dirt inside and how it behaves. Consider a ball bearing being sucked into the bag, vacuum cleaner motor on or off, the ball will fall to the bottom of the bag. The vortices forces inside the bag will only have minimal deflective effect on the ball as it drops to the bottom – nothing gets in the way of gravity (essentially the Dyson sphere in reverse). Consider changing the speed of the motor, the bearing will still drop to the bottom. The pressure inside the canopy is irrelevant because the forces are all cancelled out.


QUOTE
To simulate your tennis ball idea the right way. You would first take the ball bearing that you place inside to represent the earth. And place a few small notches. Why? The earth's surface is neither flat or smooth. After you insert the ball bearing into the tennis ball. You would have to figure out a way to make the ball inside spin at 1,000 mph. Once you do this, you then fill the tennis ball with 29 psi air. Then you would subject both to zero gravity (simulation of space). Then you would spin the inside ball to 1,000 mph and see if it would hold center in zero gravity.


What would happen – if there was a vacuum and everything was centred the system would stay that way until the first unbalance. If there was any fluid inside (under any pressure) the system would stay centred until the first unbalance. To make an experiment on earth you would have to remove the vertical axis and measure the deflecting forces the horizontal. This would take the form of a cylinder rotating inside a bigger cylinder and the deflective force being our own gravity. A sealed electric motor perhaps, spin the motor up to speed and pull both axel bearings out! stand well back!


QUOTE
Now because both objects will float in zero gravity. And now you are adding wind turbulence. How hard do you think it would be to maintain a center while both objects can float weightlessly?


there is no force to oppose gravity once the first external unbalancing force is applied. The air will not provide it because the air is unbound and will just move out the way (like a piston with a hole in it, it will have no compression)


QUOTE
The reason you cannot comprehend this is because your mind is adding weight in a weightless environment (our solar system). This is why astronauts are taught in water how things will work in space. Water simulates a weightless environment.


The weight (mass) has no consequence, the speed of the collision is dependant upon the mutual mass of the sphere and earth, and the distance between the two nearest surfaces, and the size of the disturbing force. Like I stated above you can simulate your exact experiment in the horizontal plane where the weight is removed (sealed electric motor).

QUOTE
Another example: Take a hand held mixer, a balloon, small tube (like a small straw) and some water. Slip the end of the balloon over the mixer. Fill the balloon with water through the straw to about 3/4 full. Make sure the end of the mixer is in the water. Now turn it on and you will see what outward force from water turbulence does to the balloon is the same that was done to the canopy.


I’ll will bet you that the balloons (average) circumference will not change due to pressure. A better experiment would be a force gauge measuring the pressure of the water, static or in motion. Or, Bucket of water, half way up drill a hole, fill bucket, see how far the water squirts out, now stir the water …….
ikester7579
Our difference in views from one side to another is:

You don't want creation to work, and therefore will not even ponder a possibility. Not even on one subject. Can you name one thing that you believe might have happened as far as creation goes?

I have pondered both sides for the specific reason I was taught evolution long before creation. So I don't come at this with a preconcieved idea that one is right because I was raised that way (what a lot of atheists say about creationists. That we were brain washed). Once I learned about creation, I actually felt brain washed about evolution.

So if you going to prove to me that this won't work, you have to try and make it work first. Because all I see is a one sided view that is only bent on not making it work. For we can posture on this for the next two weeks until there is nothing to say. And to what point would we do it?

This debate reminds me of the Edison and the light bulb delima. Where he made so many tests that did not work, and then made the comment that he now knew how many ways it won't work. Which made him closer to how it would work. To the dismay of the his assistant. This is how science is supposed to work.

Instead we have the politics that God cannot be involved in origins, and therefore come into a creation debate to make sure that it never is.
chance
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 24 2007, 04:18 AM)
Our difference in views from one side to another is:

You don't want creation to work, and therefore will not even ponder a possibility. Not even on one subject. Can you name one thing that you believe might have happened as far as creation goes?

I have pondered both sides for the specific reason I was taught evolution long before creation. So I don't come at this with a preconcieved idea that one is right because I was raised that way (what a lot of atheists say about creationists. That we were brain washed). Once I learned about creation, I actually felt brain washed about evolution.

So if you going to prove to me that this won't work, you have to try and make it work first. Because all I see is a one sided view that is only bent on not making it work. For we can posture on this for the next two weeks until there is nothing to say. And to what point would we do it?

This debate reminds me of the Edison and the light bulb delima. Where he made so many tests that did not work, and then made the comment that he now knew how many ways it won't work. Which made him closer to how it would work. To the dismay of the his assistant. This is how science is supposed to work.

Instead we have the politics that God cannot be involved in origins, and therefore come into a creation debate to make sure that it never is.
*



That we have philosophic differences is understandable.

However this specific topic re, a crystalline canopy, I would have thought was a science only discussion. Other than the opening quote from Genesis, the mechanisms you have been proposing appear to be purely materialistic – it is those aspects I have been addressing.

I may have misconstrued this entire post, but in my defence I made that assumption based partly on the fact that it was posted in the ‘miscellaneous’ section. If it is your proposal that the crystalline canopy is a miraculous event from start to finish then I apologise in advance, as I am mainly interested in debating the materialistic science claims.
ikester7579
QUOTE(chance @ Apr 23 2007, 04:48 PM)
That we have philosophic differences is understandable.

However this specific topic re, a crystalline canopy, I would have thought was a science only discussion.  Other than the opening quote from Genesis, the mechanisms you have been proposing appear to be purely materialistic – it is those aspects I have been addressing.

I may have misconstrued this entire post, but in my defence I made that assumption based partly on the fact that it was posted in the ‘miscellaneous’ section.  If it is your proposal that the crystalline canopy is a miraculous event from start to finish then I apologise in advance, as I am mainly interested in debating the materialistic science claims.
*



I see. What is not understood, or not wanting to understand. Becomes an automatic miracle? Science through evolution has miracles as well. Not in the sense that God did it, in the sense that it just happens.

Like how they display Lucy in the museum: http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/in...indpost&p=12957

Is it a miracle that Lucy has human hands and feet when the evidence shows neither?

I can name more miracles of science like this if needed. So don't pawn off the miracle bit as if only one side uses it.
ikester7579
How would the ice form in space for the crystalline canopy?

user posted image

The ice cloud heads towards the poles because it is attracted to the pole of a magnetic field.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/t...uttleshine.html

Now imagine what I explained through the posts here. During creation the whole planet was covered in water. And because water will boil at any temperature in a vacuum. The surface of the water forms ice crystals just like the shuttle. But because these crystals are around the whole earth, instead of moving towards one of the pole. They first become magnetized. Then to conform to the poles that magnetized these crystals. They polarize. Becoming one big sphere magnet.

Now notice the ice clouds that form because of the shuttle exhaust do not come down into the atmosphere. Instead they move towards the poles and stay hovering as clouds.

Want to guess how many questions this answers? Just about all of them.

So just as God's word says:

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

user posted image
chance
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 24 2007, 01:06 PM)
I see. What is not understood, or not wanting to understand. Becomes an automatic miracle? Science through evolution has miracles as well. Not in the sense that God did it, in the sense that it just happens.

Like how they display Lucy in the museum: http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/in...indpost&p=12957

Is it a miracle that Lucy has human hands and feet when the evidence shows neither?

I can name more miracles of science like this if needed. So don't pawn off the miracle bit as if only one side uses it.
*



Well we can discus Lucy in the appropriate thread, and, I’m willing to discuss your claims of science using [/I]‘miracles re explanation’[/I] in a separate topic.

As for this topic, I am still unclear about your position, i.e. are you claiming that the crystalline canopy is a miraculous event from start to finish, or are you claiming the existence and persistence of such an artefact is scientifically feasible.
chance
Extracts from the article

QUOTE
Exhaust from the main engines of NASA’s space shuttle, which is about 97 percent water vapor, can travel to the Arctic in the Earth’s thermosphere ….

About half of the water vapor exhaust from the shuttle’s main fuel tank is injected into the thermosphere, typically at altitudes of 64 to 71 miles (103 to 114 km). Stevens and colleagues found that this water vapor can then be transported all the way to the Arctic in a little over a day, much faster than predicted by models of atmospheric winds.


Very interesting, although a ‘magnetic’ explanations not used, it’s certainly need further investigation.



QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 25 2007, 07:15 PM)
Now imagine what I explained through the posts here. During creation the whole planet was covered in water. And because water will boil at any temperature in a vacuum. The surface of the water forms ice crystals just like the shuttle. But because these crystals are around the whole earth, instead of moving towards one of the pole. They first become magnetized. Then to conform to the poles that magnetized these crystals. They polarize. Becoming one big sphere magnet.

Now notice the ice clouds that form because of the shuttle exhaust do not come down into the atmosphere. Instead they move towards the poles and stay hovering as clouds.


I am a little confused, you seem to be alternating between metallic hydrogen, and ice for various parts of your explanation.

For an ice covered world – during the day the sunlight will knock molecules of water/ice off the surface, however you will need to find an explanation of how these molecules then reach escape velocity to get into high orbit.

While liquid water is somewhat affected by a magnetic field (definitely an electrostatic field), I’m not sure if the same applies to ice, I will see if I can find some references.

ice in space – if you are proposing a slow(ish) accumulation of ice from space born crystals starting at each pole, I see a few problems:

a. the accumulation will be rather chaotic,
b. The accumulation should follow the lines of force, and therefore not a sphere,
c. It wont be transparent, unless the crystals can remelt and form a solid uninterrupted ice sphere – it will be more like snow.
ikester7579
QUOTE(chance @ Apr 25 2007, 05:23 PM)
Extracts from the article
Very interesting, although a ‘magnetic’ explanations not used, it’s certainly need further investigation.


What else would attrack everyone of these clouds to the north pole?

QUOTE
I am a little confused, you seem to be alternating between metallic hydrogen, and ice for various parts of your explanation.


Ice cloud that covered the whole earth formed first. Then it became polarized, compressed because of it's huge size (how strong would a magnet be that in-cased the whole earth?). And then phased into metallic hydrogen.

QUOTE
For an ice covered world – during the day the sunlight will knock molecules of water/ice off the surface, however you will need to find an explanation of how these molecules then reach escape velocity to get into high orbit.


Easy. Ice exists in space correct? Also the canopy was polarized to the poles of the earth. So the metallic hydrogen held together by magnetic force.

The sequence of events:

Water exposed to space---->ice cloud forms and covers the whole earth---->become magnetized----->then polarized to the poles of the earth----->Phases into metallic hydrogen because of the extreme pressure of the magnet on the molecules.

QUOTE
While liquid water is somewhat affected by a magnetic field (definitely an electrostatic field), I’m not sure if the same applies to ice, I will see if I can find some references.


You can take an ice cube and a speaker magnet (strong magnet). And tie the ice cube with a string. Let it dangle and bring the magnet close. You will find that the cube will move.

QUOTE
ice in space – if you are proposing a slow(ish) accumulation of ice from space born crystals starting at each pole, I see a few problems:

a. the accumulation will be rather chaotic,
b. The accumulation should follow the lines of force, and therefore not a sphere,
c. It wont be transparent, unless the crystals can remelt and form a solid uninterrupted ice sphere – it will be more like snow.
*



The sphere phased into metallic hydrogen as it final form. Ice crystals, or ice cloud was just part of the process.
cd420
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 26 2007, 04:06 AM)
What else would attrack everyone of these clouds to the north pole?


Water, including ice, is diamagnetic (i.e. slightly repelled by magnetic fields) If magnetism were a significant factor the clouds would be moving away from the poles toward the equator or out toward space.

QUOTE
Ice cloud that covered the whole earth formed first. Then it became polarized, compressed because of it's huge size (how strong would a magnet be that in-cased the whole earth?). And then phased into metallic hydrogen.
Easy. Ice exists in space correct? Also the canopy was polarized to the poles of the earth. So the metallic hydrogen held together by magnetic force.


Could you provide a source for metallic hydrogen having magnetic properties. As far as I know, metallic hydrogen is given that name because at extreme pressures, hydrogen's resistance drops enough for it to be a good conductor of electricity, not because it exhibits any significant magnetic properties. Note that most metals, like gold, silver, copper, aluminum, lead etc. can't be magnetized the way iron can and are instead, diamagnetic like water.

Also the only way metallic hydrogen has ever been produced is through pure hydrogen with extreme pressure (millions of atmospheres), not hydrogen bonded with oxygen (i.e. water). And hydrogen doesn't separate from water or water vapor easily, (otherwise lighting a match when it's humid out would be a bad idea).

Just as a comparison, the pressures needed to produce metallic hydrogen are higher than those found at the center of the earth. If you really think there was a magnetic field that could cause pressure in the upper atmosphere higher than at the center of the earth, I doubt there's anything that can be said to convince you otherwise, but keep in mind that the strongest magnets available today (hundreds of thousands of times stronger than the earth's magnetic field) can't even come close to producing that kind of force.

QUOTE
You can take an ice cube and a speaker magnet (strong magnet). And tie the ice cube with a string. Let it dangle and bring the magnet close. You will find that the cube will move.


This is diamagnetism. The external magnetic field is causing a small magnetic field in the ice. The ice is actually being slightly repelled the the magnet and moving to minimize that repulsion. It takes a very strong magnet to do this, much stronger than the earth's magnetic field.
chance
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 26 2007, 09:06 PM)
chance>
Extracts from the article
Very interesting, although a ‘magnetic’ explanations not used, it’s certainly need further investigation.

ikester7579
What else would attrack everyone of these clouds to the north pole?


I have not been able to find out, typically the reports state http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/prrl/prrl0316.html
QUOTE
Stevens and colleagues found that this water vapor can be transported all the way to the Arctic in a little over a day, much faster than predicted by models of atmospheric winds. There is currently no explanation for why the water moves so quickly.



QUOTE
chance>
I am a little confused, you seem to be alternating between metallic hydrogen, and ice for various parts of your explanation.


Ice cloud that covered the whole earth formed first. Then it became polarized, compressed because of it's huge size (how strong would a magnet be that in-cased the whole earth?). And then phased into metallic hydrogen.





QUOTE
chance>
For an ice covered world – during the day the sunlight will knock molecules of water/ice off the surface, however you will need to find an explanation of how these molecules then reach escape velocity to get into high orbit.


Easy. Ice exists in space correct? Also the canopy was polarized to the poles of the earth. So the metallic hydrogen held together by magnetic force.

The sequence of events:

a. Water exposed to space
b. ice cloud forms and covers the whole earth
c. become magnetized
d. then polarized to the poles of the earth
e. Phases into metallic hydrogen because of the extreme pressure of the magnet on the molecules.
(my paragraphing)

Re step ‘a’ (this is the bit I was asking bout) – you have an ice covered world, with no canopy at the start, yes? You have to get the ice up into space, yes. Sunlight knocks a few molecules of water/ice off the surface. How do you get those molecules up into space?

Re step ‘b’ – if you are going to postulate this it would have to be along the lines of:
Ice first (building up at the poles first, gradually forming a sphere of ice).

Re step ‘c’ ‘d’ - Polarised – if by this you mean magnetic, that would have to occur in the accumulation phase, else how will it migrate to the poles?
Compressed? If it’s in orbit it is effectively weightless, the only forces are the mass of the ice its self. Also if you are proposing a sphere building up progressively, what is going to keep it up, as it’s getting heavier, clouds of ice are one thing but a continent size chunk of ice is an altogether different thing it will fall from the sky. Even if you assume some magnetic effect, because the sphere is incomplete, there is nothing to stop it flipping over, magnets that have N – N poles facing each other are inherently unstable, they will want to ‘click’ together.

Re step ‘e’ Phased into metallic hydrogen – I posted some information before that such a substance required temperatures and pressures far beyond what is available in the natural world, it cant exists in a vacuum because it will immediately vaporise.


QUOTE
chance>
While liquid water is somewhat affected by a magnetic field (definitely an electrostatic field), I’m not sure if the same applies to ice, I will see if I can find some references.


You can take an ice cube and a speaker magnet (strong magnet). And tie the ice cube with a string. Let it dangle and bring the magnet close. You will find that the cube will move.


I will try this on the weekend and let you know what I find. I have some very strong magnets at home.


QUOTE
chance>
ice in space – if you are proposing a slow(ish) accumulation of ice from space born crystals starting at each pole, I see a few problems:

a. the accumulation will be rather chaotic,
b. The accumulation should follow the lines of force, and therefore not a sphere,
c. It wont be transparent, unless the crystals can remelt and form a solid uninterrupted ice sphere – it will be more like snow.


ikester7579>
The sphere phased into metallic hydrogen as it final form. Ice crystals, or ice cloud was just part of the process.


But again there are problems (even if we ignore the metallic hydrogen).

An incomplete sphere has no way of staying aloft.

If you then postulate a very thin sphere and gradually thickening, it will cut of the light below (as it will start out snowy, before it turns to ice) and prevent light striking the surface of the earth. Shaved ice is not transparent.
ikester7579
The most commonly asked questions about our metallic hydrogen experiments are:

1)Do any metallic systems have electrical conductivities similar to those of metallic hydrogen?

Yes. The electrical conductivities of metallic fluid Cs and Rb at 2000 K are identical to those of fluid hydrogen when all three undergo the same continuous transition from a semiconducting to metallic fluid.


2)What is different about these shock experiments compared to previous ones which tried to metallize hydrogen at static high pressures in a diamond cell?

We shock-heated hydrogen to about 3000 K, which produced a fluid. Previous experiments with static megabar pressures were performed at room temperature or below, which produced solid hydrogen.


3)Why does metallization occur in the fluid at a lower pressure than for the solid?

Metallization in solid hydrogen is inhibited by phase transitions in crystal structure and molecular orientation. Neither exists in the disordered fluid.


4)Does any other element become metallic at a lower pressure in the fluid than in the solid?

Yes. Iodine becomes metallic at 30 kbar in the fluid and 160 kbar in the solid.


5)What do you mean by a metal?

Metallic fluid hydrogen is achieved when high pressures reduce the energy gap Eg between the filled valence-electron band and the unfilled conduction-electron band down to Eg~kBT, where kB is Boltzmann's constant and T is the temperature. When Eg~kBT, thermal smearing in the disordered fluid fills in the energy gap, a metallic density of electronic states is achieved, and the electronic system has a Fermi surface characteristic of a metal.


6)Why not heat hydrogen in a diamond cell to achieve the same high pressures and temperatures as in the shock experiments?

Because of the high mobility of hydrogen at high temperatures, the diamond cell is essentially transparent to hydrogen diffusion. The highest recorded temperature of hydrogen in a diamond cell is 500 K. At higher temperatures the cell is empty because hydrogen diffuses away.


7)How does shock compression heat hydrogen?

Because shock compression is so fast, it is also adiabatic. That is, heat produced by compression has insufficient time to be conducted or radiated away. Also, by reaching final pressure with a shock reverberating in soft hydrogen between stiff sapphire anvils, the final hydrogen temperature is about 1/10 what it would be if final pressure were reached in a single shock. In this way the temperature is about twice the melting temperature and 2% of the Fermi temperature, just the right temperature to produce melted condensed matter.


8)Why doesn't hydrogen diffuse out of a shock-compressed sample?

The experiment lasts only 100 ns, too short a time for the hydrogen to diffuse away.


9)Is metallic hydrogen in thermal equilibrium?

Yes. Within the 3-ns time resolution of the diagnostic system, there are ~105 intermolecular collisions and 4 times as many vibrations. This number of collisions is larger by 3-4 orders of magnitude than required to achieve thermal equilibrium.


10)Is metallic hydrogen in electrical equilibrium?

Yes. The thickness of the hydrogen layer decreases from the initial value of 500 mm down to the compressed value of 50 mm. The calculated flux diffusion time for a layer 50 mm thick with our highest electrical conductivity of 2000 (W-cm)-1 is < 1 ns, which indicates that the electrical current reaches its equilibrium flow pattern in <1 ns.


11)Is the experiment affected by hydrodynamic interfacial instabilities?

No. Rayleigh-Taylor and Richtmyer-Meshkov instabilities did not occur when shock waves traversed the planar interfaces between sapphire and hydrogen because the initial surfaces of the sapphire crystals were optically flat (300 A rms surface roughness) and the time duration of the experiment (100 ns) was too short to allow such small instabilities to grow during the duration of the measurement.


12)Is the temperature lowered by radiative cooling?

No. The temperature lost by radiation in 100 ns is <1 K out of 3000 K, a negligible amount. Thermal radiation is emitted from about 2 optical depths (640 A@) at the surface of the metallic hydrogen. The energy radiated at 3000 K was calculated from the Stefan-Boltzmann radiation law and converted to the radiated temperature using the calculated heat capacity of 2 optical depths of metallic hydrogen.


13)Is the temperature lowered by thermal conduction?

No. An interfacial layer of metallic hydrogen ~0.5 mm thick is cooled about 200 K in 100 ns; both are negligible compared to the 50-mm total thickness at 3000 K. The heat conducted was calculated using values of thermal conductivity and diffusivity of metallic hydrogen calculated with the Wiedemann-Franz law; values for alumina at 1500 K, its calculated shock temperature, were taken as handbook values.


14)Is the measured conductivity caused by a metallic interfacial layer formed by high-temperature chemical reactions?

No. Such a layer, if it were to exist, would be too thin after 100 ns and its electrical conductivity too small to account for the measured signal. For example, there is insufficient time to form a thin metallic layer of pure Al by the reduction of Al2O3 by metallic hydrogen. In 100 ns the conservatively estimated diffusion constant of H2 into Al2 O3is too small for the hydrogen to get sufficiently deep inside the Al2O3 and the diffision constants of O2, H2O, and OH->are far too small for them to get out of the anvil to allow formation of a metallic layer of Al.


15)Is current carried by ions, rather than by electrons.

No. Current is carried by electrons. The Drude conductivity depends inversely on the mass of the carrier. The masses of an electron and of a proton, the lightest possible ion, differ by a factor of 2000, which indicates that electronic conduction dominates. For example, the electrical conductivities of ionic alkali-halide fluids are typically about 1 (W-cm)-1, while conductivities of pure metallic alkali fluids are typically a few 1000 (W-cm)-1. We measured a metallic hydrogen conductivity of 2000 (W-cm)-1.


16)Is current carried by electrons in an impurity band of H monomers in a semiconducting H2 host, as in the degenerate doped semiconductor Si(P)?

No. The electronic structures of the H atom and the H2 molecule are very similar, which means the energy gap we observe is that of the H2-H mixture. Also, fluid H2 at 3000 K does not have a high dielectric constant, which means that H2 and H only interact at short range. In contrast, the electronic structure of crystalline Si and P are very different. Also, crystalline Si has a high dielectic constant, which permits dilute concentrations of P to interact at long range in a semiconducting Si host and form a conducting P impurity band in the bandgap of Si. Metallic fluid hydrogen is nothing like Si(P).


17)Is the value of the electrical resistivity of metallic hydrogen consistent with simple expectations?

Yes. The measured value of 500 mW-cm is bracketed by simple models. The formula for the calculated maximum resistivity of a metal gives a value of 250 mW-cm. A calculation of the electrical resisivity using the Ziman weak-scattering model for a molecular liquid metal gives a value of 100 mW-cm. The electrical resistivity calculated in the strong-scattering free-electron model gives 1700 mW-cm. All these values are within a factor of 5 or less of the measurement, which indicates the measured value is reasonable.


18)Why has the measured resistivity value of metallic hydrogen, 500 mW-cm, not been calculated theoretically?

Because no theory exists for this novel state of condensed matter. For example, tight-binding molecular-dynamics calculations indicate that the energies of translation, vibration, and rotation of H2are all comparable in fluid metallic hydrogen. Present theories of liquid metals assume these energies are significantly different from one another.


19)If metallic hydrogen could be retained metastably on release of pressure, what properties would it have?

Metallic hydrogen is speculated to have a number of interesting properties and important applications, if it could be quenched from high pressures to ambient. It is not known how, nor even whether, metallic hydrogen could be quenched to ambient but the potential benefits are enormous if it could be. For this reason it is worth speculating on possible uses of metastable solid metallic hydrogen.
The ten times higher density of metallic DT fuel pellets, relative to molecular solid ones, would increase substantially the energy produced in laser-driven ICF, giving giant lasers, such as LLNL's NOVA and future NIF, an even larger margin for success than expected previously. The higher starting density of the fuel might produce a sufficiently large increase in ICF energy yield such that it might be possible to use only deterium as the fuel. The absence of radioactive tritium might make the ICF energy source much more attractive to commercial energy producers.

Metallic solid hydrogen has been predicted to be a room-temperature superconductor, which would result in substantial energy conservation nationwide.

Metastable metallic hydrogen would have a very high density of stored energy because it would have a density about ten times that of liquid H2 at 1 bar. Thus, the stored energy released by reversion to the diatomic insulating fluid would also be very large and metastable metallic hydrogen would have widespread applications as fuels. If this energy were released relatively slowly or quickly, metallic hydrogen would be either a clean propellant, as gasoline, or an explosive, respectively. The predicted specific impulse of metallic hydrogen is about 5 times that of liquid H2/O2 fuel now used to launch rockets into space. This large increase in specific impulse would result in smaller cheaper spacecraft, which would greatly facilitate space travel.

If solid metallic hydrogen has sufficient strength, it might be useful as a light-weight structural material. For example, automobiles made of metallic hydrogen would be ~10 times lighter than current ones made of steel, enhancing fuel efficiency and reducing conventional fuel emissions. The ideal would be to synthesize metallic hydrogen to be either extremely metastable, as diamond, for use as a structural material or readily reactive, as gasoline.

Large quantities of metallic hydrogen might be made by shock recovery methods using large systems of chemical explosives, as DuPont now shock-synthesizes diamond.

Reference: http://www-phys.llnl.gov/Organization/HDiv...n/ComQuest.html

The nucleus of the hydrogen atom has it's own magnetic field.
cd420
Nothing in that FAQ suggested any way to produce metallic hydrogen without pressures greater than any found naturally on earth. It specifically states that there is no known method or theory which would allow metallic hydrogen to exist without extreme pressures.

QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 26 2007, 09:04 PM)
The nucleus of the hydrogen molecule has it's own magnetic field.
*



1. Nucleus is a term that applies to atoms, not molecules
2. A hydrogen nucleus contains protons, not electrons. it is moving electrons that are responsible for magnetic fields.
3. On an individual level it's possible for a atom to generate a miniscule magnetic field due to it's orbiting electrons, however for groups of diamagnetic atoms like as hydrogen gas, the individual magnetic fields aren't aligned the same way and as a consequence there is no net magnetic field for clouds of hydrogen gas.
ikester7579
QUOTE(cd420 @ Apr 28 2007, 02:03 PM)
Nothing in that FAQ suggested any way to produce metallic hydrogen without pressures greater than any found naturally on earth.  It specifically states that there is no known method or theory which would allow metallic hydrogen to exist without extreme pressures.


Yes, and how much pressure can there be in a metallic hydrogen sphere that is semi solid, and covers the whole earth? How strong would a semi sold magnet be that is big enough to surround the earth? Could it produce enough pressure with in itself to do this? To be able to hold itself together above the earth like that, I believe that much pressure would be required for it to stay together.

QUOTE
1. Nucleus is a term that applies to atoms, not molecules


I was wondering who would catch that. I started to correct myself and decided not to.

QUOTE
2. A hydrogen nucleus contains protons, not electrons.  it is moving electrons that are responsible for magnetic fields.


Good, proof that it can be magnetized.

QUOTE
3.  On an individual level it's possible for a atom to generate a miniscule magnetic field due to it's orbiting electrons, however for groups of diamagnetic atoms like as hydrogen gas, the individual magnetic fields aren't aligned the same way and as a consequence there is no net magnetic field for clouds of hydrogen gas.
*



Of course on an individaul level. But I'm speaking of a level vast enough to surround the earth.
cd420
QUOTE
Yes, and how much pressure can there be in a metallic hydrogen sphere that is semi solid, and covers the whole earth?


Depends on what you think is holding the sphere up and how dense it is. Normal clouds float because they are less dense than the atmosphere below them. If the sphere is floating because it's less dense then the max pressure it can have is however much pressure is required to make it denser than the air underneath.

If the sphere is floating because it's being diamagnetically levitated, then magnetic force pushing up is equalled by gravitational force pulling down. It would be under less pressure than someone standing on the ground ( standing on a mountain and being magnetically levitated to the height of the mountain is the same thing from a pressure perspective)

If the sphere is some type of rigid solid shell with no outward force countering gravity except it's own compressive strength then you might be able to generate a lot of pressure from internal compression but you'd wind up with all the other problems inherant in a dyson sphere, such as the sphere buckling and collapsing from the pressure.

If the sphere was semi-solid like some kind of putty it would just be a flimsy dyson sphere, very susceptable to buckling. (Imagine a hollow ball made of putty and a hollow ball made of firm plastic, now imagine there's force pushing inward, just like gravity would pull inward, which do you think would collapse first, the semi solid or the solid)

I don't know how thick or dense or high your proposed canopy is but the equation to calculate pressure on the walls of a dyson sphere is:
acceleration from gravity * density of material * Radius of sphere/2

QUOTE
Good, proof that it can be magnetized.

If you are counting orbiting electrons on atoms as meaning something can be magnetized then technically everything is magnetizable which kind of makes the concept of non-magnetic things useless.

Could you give a definition or example of something that you would consider not magnetizable and explain how it is any different from hydrogen. If you think there's nothing that can't be magnetized then it doesn't seem worth further discussion about whether hydrogen can be magnetized or not.
ikester7579
QUOTE(cd420 @ Apr 29 2007, 02:00 AM)
Depends on what you think is holding the sphere up and how dense it is.  Normal clouds float because they are less dense than the atmosphere below them.  If the sphere is floating because it's less dense then the max pressure it can have is however much pressure is required to make it denser than the air underneath. 

If the sphere is floating because it's being diamagnetically levitated, then magnetic force pushing up is equalled by gravitational force pulling down.  It would be under less pressure than someone standing on the ground ( standing on a mountain and being magnetically levitated to the height of the mountain is the same thing from a pressure perspective)

If the sphere is some type of rigid solid shell with no outward force countering gravity except it's own compressive strength then you might be able to generate a lot of pressure from internal compression but you'd wind up with all the other problems inherant in a dyson sphere, such as the sphere buckling and collapsing from the pressure.

If the sphere was semi-solid like some kind of putty it would just be a flimsy dyson sphere, very susceptable to buckling.  (Imagine a hollow ball made of putty and a hollow ball made of firm plastic, now imagine there's force pushing inward, just like gravity would pull inward, which do you think would collapse first, the semi solid or the solid)

I don't know how thick or dense or high your proposed canopy is but the equation to calculate pressure on the walls of a dyson sphere is:
acceleration from gravity * density of material * Radius of sphere/2
If you are counting orbiting electrons on atoms as meaning something can be magnetized then technically everything is magnetizable which kind of makes the concept of non-magnetic things useless. 

Could you give a definition or example of something that you would consider not magnetizable and explain how it is any different from hydrogen.  If you think there's nothing that can't be magnetized then it doesn't seem worth further discussion about whether hydrogen can be magnetized or not.
*



Maybe the link here will show you since you do not believe anything I say: http://focus.aps.org/story/v16/st11
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/May98...drogen.deb.html

The ice cloud from shuttle launches forms in the thermoshere. Which contains what is known as the ionosphere. The ionoshere ionizes particles. Ionized water molecules have a charge. And frozen they would be ice crystals that have a charge, and a magnetic field.

Metallic hydrogen would become ionized here as well. And obtain a charge, and a magnetic field. And because metallic hydrogen is a super conductor, it would not be hard to pass this charge through out the sphere in order for it to polarize to conform with the poles of the earth.

As far as the Dyson sphere goes. I have not studied it. And this does not support it. This is part of the Crystalline canopy theory..
cd420
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ Apr 28 2007, 11:39 PM)
Maybe the link here will show you since you do not believe anything I say: http://focus.aps.org/story/v16/st11
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/May98...drogen.deb.html


I'm not sure what those links have to do with the idea of a canopy of metallic hydrogen. I'm not questioning whether metallic hydrogen can be produced by high pressures or whether it can be superconducting. I'm questioning where those pressures would come from and how a sphere of solid material would withstand those pressures without collapsing.

QUOTE
The ice cloud from shuttle launches forms in the thermoshere. Which contains what is known as the ionosphere. The ionoshere ionizes particles. Ionized water molecules have a charge. And frozen they would be ice crystals that have a charge, and a magnetic field.


Ignoring the problems with creating ionic water molecules, charged (ionic) molecules only produce magnetic fields when they are moving. And they either need to have a very large charge or need to be moving pretty fast (large percentage of speed of light) in order to make any significant magnetic field. An ionized molecule has a very small electric field and I doubt that clouds of ionized water molecules are traveling thousands of miles per second.

B = v * (1/c^2) *E
B is magnetic field
V is velocity of the electric charge, measured in metres per second
c is the speed of light in a vacuum measured in metres per second
E is the electric field measured in newtons per coulomb or volts per metre

From the equation you can see that either E or v needs to be very large in order for B to be a noticable number.

QUOTE
Metallic hydrogen would become ionized here as well. And obtain a charge, and a magnetic field. And because metallic hydrogen is a super conductor, it would not be hard to pass this charge through out the sphere in order for it to polarize to conform with the poles of the earth.


That makes it worse for the canopy idea, because magnetic fields aren't uniform. They are stronger at the poles than at the sides, if the magnetic field in the canopy is uniform that means it's going to be under more stress at the poles than at the equator.

QUOTE
As far as the Dyson sphere goes. I have not studied it. And this does not support it. This is part of the Crystalline canopy theory..
*



There are quite a few problems with that site. It seems to be taking the results of real experiments and applying them to areas that don't have anything to do with the original experiments.

I don't want to have to go through that whole site trying to pick out every possible error so I'm going to ask for your assitance. Are there 1 or 2 statements on that site that you feel are so important that if they were falsified you'd consider the canopy idea on that site falsified?

Basically, I'm asking what it would take for you to say "Hey this canopy idea doesn't work" that doesn't involve me trying to solve every possible equation for every possible configuration of sphere.
chance
QUOTE
chance>
While liquid water is somewhat affected by a magnetic field (definitely an electrostatic field), I’m not sure if the same applies to ice, I will see if I can find some references.

ikester7579>
You can take an ice cube and a speaker magnet (strong magnet). And tie the ice cube with a string. Let it dangle and bring the magnet close. You will find that the cube will move.

chance>
I will try this on the weekend and let you know what I find. I have some very strong magnets at home.


I was able to get a very small deflection with an ice cube hanging from a cotton thread about a meter long, it was a very small deflection. Should be interesting to see if this is the effect for the spaces shuttles ice clouds moving to the north magnetic pole.



Also I have to echo cd420’s claims about the nature of metallic hydrogen, the website you posted quotes megabar pressures! (one atmosphere = 1 bar, and a megabar is 1,000,000 atmospheres)

Plus one thing you have not addresses is how the water molecules separate into hydrogen and oxygen, a prerequisite for getting to the metallic hydrogen phase.
cd420
QUOTE(chance @ Apr 29 2007, 01:44 PM)
I was able to get a very small deflection with an ice cube hanging from a cotton thread about a meter long, it was a very small deflection.  Should be interesting to see if this is the effect for the spaces shuttles ice clouds moving to the north magnetic pole.



I think i mentioned somewhere in a previous post that magentism can't be the effect responsible for ice clouds moving to the magnetic poles. If you noticed, the ice cube should have been deflected away from the magnetic field because water is diamagnetic. This means that if magnetism was in play, the ice clouds would be getting pushed away from the stronger field at the poles towards the weaker field at the equator or simply out into space.

see HERE under the heading "diamagnetic water"

Neodymium magnets will repel ice cubes slightly. Hang an ice cube from a thread, and let it stretch the thread and cease spinning. Now bring your NIB magnet stack near the side of one end of the cube. You can push it so that it slowly turns. Cast a long icecube (or use an icicle in winter), which increases the lever arm and makes the effect more obvious.
chance
QUOTE(cd420 @ Apr 30 2007, 08:16 AM)
I think i mentioned somewhere in a previous post that magentism can't be the effect responsible for ice clouds moving to the magnetic poles.  If you noticed, the ice cube should have been deflected away from the magnetic field because water is diamagnetic.  This means that if magnetism was in play, the ice clouds would be getting pushed away from the stronger field at the poles towards the weaker field at the equator or simply out into space.

see HERE under the heading "diamagnetic water"

Neodymium magnets will repel ice cubes slightly. Hang an ice cube from a thread, and let it stretch the thread and cease spinning. Now bring your NIB magnet stack near the side of one end of the cube. You can push it so that it slowly turns. Cast a long icecube (or use an icicle in winter), which increases the lever arm and makes the effect more obvious.
*




The deflection I obtained was so small I could not determine direction, I was not certain that I was imagining it.

Interesting that it should push the ice. But if ice has polarity, what would prevent it aligning with the magnetic lines of force? I’m thinking the iron filings on a sheet of paper with a magnet underneath sort of thing, is this inappropriate re ice?
ikester7579
QUOTE(chance @ Apr 29 2007, 10:32 PM)
The deflection I obtained was so small I could not determine direction, I was not certain that I was imagining it.

Interesting that it should push the ice.   But if ice has polarity, what would prevent it aligning with the magnetic lines of force?  I’m thinking the iron filings on a sheet of paper with a magnet underneath sort of thing, is this inappropriate re ice?
*



I have not tried this yet, but if you put one pole (north or south) over a few ice trays filled with water. Then let them freeze. The result should be ice that acts like it is magnetized (in theory). It would be interesting to see if the ice cubes would repell, or attrack one another after they are froozen like this.

Then another experiment would be to get a milk jug and fill it with water. Put one pole of a magnet under it and let it freeze to see if the amount of froozen water makes a difference.

Taking a compass and putting it near the ice cubes would be interesting. You can actually test the magnetic field by measuring how close you can get to each froozen ice object before the compass starts to react. And you can tell where the pole are using the compass because opposites attrack.
cd420
QUOTE(chance @ Apr 29 2007, 07:32 PM)
The deflection I obtained was so small I could not determine direction, I was not certain that I was imagining it.

Interesting that it should push the ice.   But if ice has polarity, what would prevent it aligning with the magnetic lines of force?  I’m thinking the iron filings on a sheet of paper with a magnet underneath sort of thing, is this inappropriate re ice?
*



Ice doesn't have magnetic polarity on it's own, it's diamagnetic which means it would only have an induced magnetic field caused by the presence of an external magnetic field. Basically, the magnetic field of the magnet you used causes a temporary change in the orbit of electrons, this change created an opposing magnetic field. When you move the magnet away, the electrons go back to their regular motion and the induced magnetic field goes away.

Ice filings wouldn't align along magnetic field lines like iron filings do. The induced magnetic field is of opposite polarity (if the magnet is aligned S-N, iron filings would be S-N, but the ice would be aligned N-S), this creates repulsion instead of attraction. the ice would be pushed away from the magnetic field lines, not pulled toward them.

Diamagnetism is a VERY weak force that only has a noticable effect when there are strong magnetic fields (thousands of times the strength of earth's magnetic field).

See the entry on Diamagnetism

I don't know if magnetic fields can be frozen in, but i doubt it since the diamagnetic magnetic field of ice appears when in the presence of a magnet and goes away when you remove the magnet it seems as if the electrons in water molecules are free to move around and change rotation even when frozen. You might be able to freeze in a small residual amount of magnetic field, but I think it would be extremely small.
ikester7579
QUOTE
There are quite a few problems with that site. It seems to be taking the results of real experiments and applying them to areas that don't have anything to do with the original experiments.

I don't want to have to go through that whole site trying to pick out every possible error so I'm going to ask for your assitance. Are there 1 or 2 statements on that site that you feel are so important that if they were falsified you'd consider the canopy idea on that site falsified?

Basically, I'm asking what it would take for you to say "Hey this canopy idea doesn't work" that doesn't involve me trying to solve every possible equation for every possible configuration of sphere.


I think you know the site is owned and operated by me.

Also, equations don't always make the answer until the experiment to test it is done.

I plan on conducting a test of my own in a beaker. Do you think a glass beaker can withstand a vacuum of -25 to -29 on a psi gauge without cracking?
cd420
QUOTE(ikester7579 @ May 1 2007, 12:35 AM)
I think you know the site is owned and operated by me.

I didn't know that. I wasn't intending to be insulting, but it is a fact that there are several problems with the science on that site. For starters, Ozone is O3 not O4, H2O3 (Trioxidane) isn't the reason water looks blue. Seen here.

QUOTE
Also, equations don't always make the answer until the experiment to test it is done.

Equations predict the answer, the experiment is just to confirm that the equations are correct. I certainly haven't used any non-standard equations, everything I've used so far is basic physics and has withstood decades and in some cases centuries of testing. If you think there are some unaccounted for effects that render the equations innapplicable then by all means present them.

QUOTE
I plan on conducting a test of my own in a beaker. Do you think a glass beaker can withstand a vacuum of -25 to -29 on a psi gauge without cracking?


Probably, normal pyrex flasks can handle 1 atm pretty consistantly, I'd imagine there's enough leeway engineered into flasks that you could support 2 atm. I'd wear goggles just in case, and try to avoid tapping it when it's under pressure.

That wouldn't have any impact on the feasability of the canopy idea though, because large structures are under more stress from their own mass than small structures.
Or to put it in terms of your beaker experiment, you could do it with a regular sized beaker, but a beaker the size of a house would probably shatter and a beaker the size of a planet would most likely collapse under almost any pressure. Remember the old rule of thumb for rope, "twice the length, half the strength", it applies to all 3 dimensional objects as well. I'd show you the equation for it but you seem to not want any more math.
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