There are two ways we hear God.
1) Prompting. Which is like a push in a particular direction. A direction God wants us to go. Like when we have an indecision, and suddenly it becomes clear. And we know how and who it came from because we have become familiar with the feeling when this happens. What feeling? A feeling of peace that is beyond all understanding. This is God reconfirming to us who the prompting came from.

2) Now the voice part falls into 2 catagories. Audible and non-audible. The audible event of communication is very rare. Not many have experienced this.The non-audible event of communication is more common. It's like when we don't know what to say, then suddenly we do. And so we speak and what comes out even amazes us. It's like: Where did that come from? We ask ourselves. This is what's called: The Holy Spirit working through us to relay what God wants. This is why, what was said, even amazes the one that said it.

Now I know what the next question is going to be. How come some get this and some don't?

This is where spiritual levels are involved. Each child of God walks at a different level of closeness to God. The closer you get, the more spiritual gifts are revealed to you. Whether we learn to use them to the fullest is also a learning process. It is usually where we have to learn to trust God more and ourself less. For each gift, also opens a new door of understanding God. Some christians get stuck at a certain level because they want to hang onto self more than God. We can't get closer to God when we refuse to look in His direction. And when we decide to hold on to our fleshly needs (sin), how do we expect to become more spiritually? Though we are forgiven, it is not an excuse to not strive for the mark that is clearly shown.

How can you tell what level your at? Have you ever saw another christian who was committing a sin that you could see as sin, but they could not? This is because your at a spiritual level that allows you to see that sin for what it was. They were not. And if they are unwilling to listen to correction. More than likely, they will be stuck at that level and will never see what you see. Once you see this type of understanding as a spiritual blessing from God, it will encourage you because you will understand you have achieved something in your walk with God that is beyond the norm.

Higher levels take more commitment.

This is why you see some people do things, that to you, may seem silly. Like stop watching t.v.. Ever heard somebody do that? This is a person who is striving for the mark and is willing to give up something (a fleshly need) to achieve this. When a child of God does this, it gets God's attention. And God looks at this person and determines what spiritual gifts (level) this person is ready for.
Example: A few weeks ago, I decided to throw away my video games that had evil overtones to them. Some friends thought it was silly. Some understood what I was trying to do. I wanted to strive for a higher level and was willing to sacrafice a fleshly need (sin) to achieve it. I was able to see that it was sin. The ones who thought it was silly, did not.

Sacraficing your flesh to achieve new levels. First you have to understand what spiritual maturity is. To do something, and expect something in return, but not be spiritually ready, will achieve the results your not looking for. It's like trying to take the fast lane of learning but not retaining what you have learned, would you be ready for next level? You have to be spiritually ready, spiritually mature. Which means you need to obtain the spiritual need to want to do this. An action with only expectations, is an action of the flesh and not the spirit.

How do I achieve this?
You pray to God and tell Him your wants and needs. And when you have prayed and feel a desire for what needs to be, for this to happen. This is God placing a desire in your heart that is like a fire that can't be quenched. This is when you start to see what stands in your way. You start to see sin that you did not know was sin. And your desire to remove it becomes great. this is also where you will have a spiritual conflict between good (God) and evil (your fleshly wants). You will find yourself wanting to get rid of what is in your way, but you will also find yourself making an excuse to keep it. This is why God calls it: sacraficing your flesh. Because when you do this, a part of your flesh dies so that you can become spiritually stronger.
Example: When I went to throw away my video games, I had a conflict. My flesh did not want to give it up. My excuse? This is my fun, my entertainment. What will my friends say when they want to play and find out what I did? This is also where you'll have to make a decision whether what your friends say is more important than what God says, and more important than the level you want to achieve.

All of this requires you to sacrafice your flesh. Whether you do it will determine how close you become to God. And if you'll reach that level where you will hear God's voice.

Is there a verse that supports spiritual levels?
Revelations 3:
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Cold, lukewarm and hot, are three levels defined as a child of God.

1) Cold: is the level where the child of God are sheep. They live the life God would expect, and never try to dishonor His name. And repent of their sins.

2) Lukewarm: is the level where a christian has either allowed themselves to backslide to a point of falling from grace, or they never really committed to Christ, and their whole life dishonors God. Even though they claim to know Him.... This is why they will be spued from the mouth of Christ. Because they were in the body, but were not part of the body. They had to be removed.

3) Hot: Is the level where the child of God will strive for the mark. More closeness. More spirit gifts etc... This child of God becomes the shepherd of the sheep (the cold). If the tests are passed in this level. The shepherd can recieve different gifts. What each will get, is determined by what God decides to give them. Each test determines this. Some will get the power to heal through prayer, or even a touch. Some will get wisdom that flows through them like a fountain of knowledge. Wisdom that only comes from one source. Some will become spiritual warriors. Prayer warriors. etc.... And some will get several gifts of the spirit.

Spiritual levels are not a form of anyone saying: I'm better than you. It all has to do with your decisions as you walk with Christ, and what you decide to do with that walk.

What the "Henry Complete" say's about this:

Agreed, and why I think we have to be careful here, because it can lead to spiritual pride if misunderstood. I had a Word of Faith (WoF) person tell me he was at a greater spiritual level than me because he could speak in tongues. Yet I believe the passages regarding tongues that he used, 1 Cor 14, ironically proved the precise opposite - these verses were chiding those like him for improper use of tongues in such a manner as to produce spiritual pride. He admitted he did not know what he was saying, and that he had no interpreter, but he was doing it in private. He tried to justify this with 1 Cor 14:28. But he yanked it out of context, since the preceding verse is very clear: “Let all things be done for edification.”. His claim was not only anti-edifying, it was also bragging about something that is supposed to remain private. [for the record, I believe tongues have ceased, with perhaps some rare exceptions].

Most importantly in regard to this thread, I think you left out what I consider the most important way we hear God – through His Word. Whenever I need to answer some real life question, I first scan my knowledge of the Bible to see if I can find an answer. If I can’t, I pray for wisdom (that is, when I think to do so, which unfortunately isn’t always the case) - when an answer comes, it is almost always through scripture. Like listening to someone like Raul Reese on the radio, and he reads a passage of scripture and suddenly you realize “That’s it! That’s the answer!” I’ve had that happen on more than one account.



Many Christians believe this gift ceased with the apostles. I tend to lean toward this, though I do believe God does offer us limited healing through prayer. My problem is, why can’t those who can heal with prayer or a touch, heal an amputee? Christ healed an amputee, why can’t we? These types of healing are virtually always of the variety that is almost impossible to prove. I believe there is a reason for this – miracles have a strong tendency to damage the opportunity for unbelievers to come to know God. There are many, many Bible passages to support this. Miracles at first woo the people, but soon people realize they are not the center of the universe and are accountable to a righteous God, so they walk away from the submission part of the equation. Faith is essentially stripped away. In fact, miracles often promoted even *more* sin on their part:

Psalms 78:13-17 He divided the sea and caused them to pass through;
And He made the waters stand up like a heap.
In the daytime also He led them with the cloud,
And all the night with a light of fire.
He split the rocks in the wilderness,
And gave them drink in abundance like the depths.
He also brought streams out of the rock,
And caused waters to run down like rivers.
But they sinned even more against Him

Psalms 78:28-32 All around their dwellings. So they ate and were well filled,
For He gave them their own desire.
They were not deprived of their craving;
But while their food was still in their mouths,
The wrath of God came against them,
And slew the stoutest of them,
And struck down the choice men of Israel.
In spite of this they still sinned,
And did not believe in His wondrous works.

Also recall when Jesus healed the 10 lepers. How many came back to thank and praise him? One. See Luke 17. Notice it is within the context of the Apostles asking for increased faith.

In Christ,
Fred

I try not to discourage those with a gift, but like you pointing out that verse. It is up to us to guide them in the right way of doing it. For there is a righteous, and a unrighteous way to obtain power to do things. Both look similar, but are not the same. And are not not from the same being. But, if a person uses it to develop pride, and the gift was from God. God can take away what He has given. God is not mocked, and those who steal His glory through exalting themselves are doing just that.




I would be very careful about how you limit God's power, unless it can be backed up with scripture. For God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. And the reason His power is not used like it was in the old days, is because how many people today would commit themselves like people did back then? Unlike today, they did not have such obligations as we do. And could venture off and become great for the Lord. We do more than most, but I know when you look at the greats of our past, you wonder what it is that lacks in, us in order to be like them.

It's called a will, and desire to commit, where most won't. To go the extra mile that most won't even consider. To sacrifice self, and become humbled to His will. To set the most perfect example possible of our Lord. If we look at our life, we know we can do better. Question is, are we willing?.... That's what made the great Christians from the past great. They did all those things and even more. And God rewarded them with gifts of the spirit that only a few will ever see. That's why God's word says: Many are called, but few are chosen.



Faith is another reason why God does not work miracles like in the old days.

Example: When Christ healed the little girl, He first asked that everyone leave except his apostles. Why? They were the only ones with enough faith. The others did not. So Jesus could not perform a miracle while they were present.

Please understand that I am not saying God’s power is limited. But in His infinite wisdom He knows best how to use and delegate it. Thus, through scripture I offered a reason why it appears God has only given limited power of healing in our post apostolic age (and presumably at many other times in Biblical history, since healing really is a very small part of the recorded history in the Bible). In fact, throughout scripture God seldom engaged in miracles such as healing, for the scriptural reasons I mentioned. There is a strong tendency for the miracle to have a negative impact, especially to unbelievers, for whom God is longsuffering to come to know Him.



I would have to disagree with this. While it’s possible their obligations were less stringent, I’m not so sure we should make that assumption (I often marvel how true the statement Solomon made, that “there is nothing new under the sun”). Also, I’m not so sure the greats of the past necessarily had greater faith or dedication than all Christians today, per se. Virtually all the prophets had various problems, similar to the same ones we face. It lends truth the Bible, that many of these guys screwed up like we do. The “no one does good, no not one” applied to these prophets as well.

Where I believe this line of reasoning about spiritual levels can go awry is if it is taken too far, when Christians are told they do not have enough faith. Its one of the reasons given for those who push a “2nd baptism” that is needed to bring them closer to God. This is yet another doctrine taught by Word of Faith preachers that is easy to show is unscriptural. So I’m just trying to be a voice of caution that we don’t go too far with this, because when we do it can lead to the afore-mentioned scriptural problems that produce spiritual pride. I think spiritual pride is the core problem with the Word of Faith movement and why it yields so many unscriptural doctrines. Yet another one just came to mind, when a friend of mine relayed to me how a WoF preacher told the husband of a woman who died of cancer that the reason she wasn’t healed was that she didn’t have enough faith.

I’ll again take a moment to note that throughout the recorded history in the Bible, God seldom used miracles. The two times He used them the most (the Exodus, last couple years of Jesus’ life), is also arguably the greatest rejection He ever faced.



I agree, but I think for a different reason. One person put it this way. There are two steps to God: 1) Faith (trust), 2) submission. Miracles remove or greatly reduce step one, leaving only step 2. Step two then becomes a BIG step, a harder step to make for fallen men who would rather rely on themselves than God.

In Christ
Fred

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. Why? I have seen this work first hand. It was not anything I was taught. It was something I learned while researching the word, and praying for wisdom. We are all to quick to take someone's word for something that we respect. Through my research, prayer, ministering, etc... I have confirmed most of these things myself. In fact, I have already worked one person through several levels of faith. It has made her so strong spiritually, things that used to really bother her, no longer do. She gives it all to the Lord in prayer.

And I'm working with another person, and the same is happening to them. In all these ministering sessions, only one person gets exalting, and only one person sacrafices their flesh to a higher commitment. And because I make sure it's done right, God honors it. You cannot produce the good fruit of God, while God is involved, by mocking Him, and making Him look evil.

Also, men would rather rely on themselves for any knowledge, and not take it to prayer, and wait for the answer. All doctrines have their faults, some worse than other. I don't adhere to any. I just go with the flow that God provides. For to much legalism puts the mind and spirit into a fog. Having preconceived ideas about what someone is, or is pushing is one fault of being more relied on doctrines.

Example: I've heard it said that Joyce Myer is a WOF person. This started because she made a couple of comment in her book that sounded like that's what it was. Did anyone ask her? Nope. So she did Larry King Live, and he ask her point blank. She said that she was non-denominational. And that everyone was trying to tag her with things she is not.

So why did all that come up anyway? Because some people decided they were going to judge her on their standards and merit. And in a way, that is making themselves better by putting another person down. Then only later is it found out that what was said, or thought, was wrong. Who does this wrong doing fall upon?

Yes, as can happen on occasion. However, I’m not clear where we specifically disagree since the topic has dove-tailed into a number of separate, though often related issues. In reflecting on the title of the thread, I originally thought that we were probably just disagreeing on semantics, since we both agree there are different stages of maturity in a Christian’s life. But after praying on this and reflecting on God’s word, what came to mind makes me think that equating the maturity process to “levels” is not the best approach, as it can imply heretical doctrines such as 2nd baptism (called a “higher level” by those who espouse this), bad health = lack of faith, and speaking in tongues = higher spiritual level.

The way scripture describes our spiritual maturity is not by levels, but instead equates it to a race:

1 Cor 9:24-27 - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. - Acts 20:24

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. - 2 Tim 4:6-7

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us - Heb 12:1

Also, when I read the Revelation passage regarding being lukewarm, it seems to imply these church members were not saved, that is, they were not even running the race! I’ll be interested in opinions on this.

Finally, consider this incident in the New Testament:

Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest. And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called 'benefactors.' But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves. But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. - Luke 22:24-28

In Christ,
Fred

Maybe this is where the misunderstanding lies. I'm not as versed in all the doctrines, I'm not even sure of all that Mormons believe, or Calvinism. And really don't care to learn it. The part about higher levels, I now see what your saying. In fact, the new person I'm ministering to, I had to explain to them that you can't use your position to put someone down. This person wanted a gift that they were not prepared (mature) enough to receive. They thought it would make them a better Christian. And did not understand why someone else received this, and they did not. They were looking more for self gratification, then the blessing of the actual gift. And they looked down upon themselves because of it. Thought that it would make them a better Christian. God does not make Christians, He molds and forms them. So the quick blessings, with no understanding, does not work. And was the main reason this person will not receive this until they have the wisdom to understand it.

So yes, levels I refer to is a maturity in Christ. Nothing more.



How can a sinner be in the body of Christ to be spued from it?



Yes, I can relate to the serving part. Ministering is a form of serving both God and man, as long as it's used to bring Glory to God only.

Perhaps one way to look at it with the Christians you were ministering to, is that along with your race, you're also helping other runners by providing water, encouragment, etc. Just a thought, but it seems to match the way this is illustrated in scripture.

Fred

what are the signs of backsliding?

I couldn't find where this is in response to something in this thread, so please feel free to start a new thread on this topic if you like.

Fred