There are certain types of music I like and don't like. But I have learned that if God's blessing is in it, I don't condemn it. So I thought I would leave a couple of examples and get opinions.



I have seen the testimony of this group above (third day) and how it came together. As the lead singer will tell you, it did not work until they allowed God to guide them. And when the correct members of the band finally came together (what God planned), the band took off beyond their wildest dreams of success.



The name of the song on the second video (because it's hard to understand the lyrics) is "praising Him tonight" by Kutless. And even though some may disagree with the music, I believe this reaches an audience that would not be reachable any other way.

Note: the views expressed here are my personal views may not be the views of the forum owner.

Added:

Thats almost exacty how I wouldve of put it, if they are doing the will of God and being blessed for doing so, then why punish them for it.

I dont usually listen to Christian music, or much music at all, but if I notice that God is the main reason they are singing, then I will be happy for them. I'm just not much of a praise song type of person, to me it doesnt really get a solid message across.

The way I have learned to gauge something that I am not sure of is to look for the signs of God's approval. Why?

Because we are not perfect, God has to leave us some "leeway" for our imperfections. Question is, how much "leeway" is that? Can anyone here actually say and then back that up with scripture?

jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What the verse above means is that Father God controls the drawing power to His Son. So in order for "any" ministry (music or what ever) to have God's approval, it first most have the sign of being able to draw people to Christ. Why? Because this shows that God is in that ministry.

Because:
1) The Devil is not going to draw people to Christ for salvation.
2) God is not going to be involved in a deception.

Some might think: Well they have to follow certain rules in order for certain things to happen. Not so as Christ points out to John in the book of Luke.

Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

For he that is not against us is for us. Forbid him not. So when we judge people by the standard we "think" God would want, are we not really judging them by our own standard because we disagree? Because if we truly were to allow God to be our guide in our decisions on what we see. Then we would look for the signs of approval instead of making up our own rules.

Hello Isaac,

May I assume that by Christian music you mean rock music with an alleged Christian theme, aka "Contemporary Christian Music?"

There's an excellent treatment of the topic in two books authored by Dan Lucarini. They are "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement: Confessions of a Former Worship Leader," and "Can We Rock the Gospel?: Rock Music's Impact on Worship and Evangelism."

Our family has read, and reread, both books several times, and we have even spent time on the phone receiving counsel from Mr. Lucarini. That's because music plays an important part in our family's lives, and is also a major reason why we do not have any particular church we call home.

Before a discussion of CCM can take place it has to be taken out of the realm of the personal and emotional. Dan Lucarini's books are a real eye-opener that should lead one to realize the true biblical perspective of this relatively new worship style.

Dave

Anything can be made to be good or evil. It is whether you strive to stay within the boundaries of what separates both. I can drive a Harley, a lot of Harley bikers are associated with secular sinful stuff. But if I do not drive the Harley to associate with that crowd, but to use it as a tool to reach that same crowd. Am I committing evil? If what I do is not in the will of God, He will block the drawing power to His Son. Which means that my works will not bear fruit.

Dan Lucarini may have been called out of this music because God knew he was not strong enough to resist the temptation that so many in the music world fall into because there is more money in one section of music than another. Like Leann Rhymes and Spears, Whitney Houston etc... Who started out singing in the church and was lured away by fame and money.. God is not going to tempt us beyond what we can bear.

I'm not say leaving the music is wrong for you or Dan Lucarini. But the situation for each individual is different concerning their ability to work in certain fields with the gifts they are given. And the true only way that I have found that shows God is in something whether I agree or not. Is if that ministry can draw people to the Son of God. Because without looking for the signs of approval (the drawing power), it becomes more of our opinion than scriptural. For can God's drawing power to His Son be in a ministry full of deception and evil? That would make God deceptive and evil as well. And because Satan will never draw anyone to Christ because he loses through salvation. This shows that this power can only be reserved for ministries that fall under God's approval.

For can you provide a verse that says there is another drawing power to the Son that does not come from the Father? One that possibly comes from evil?

Example: I have the recorded testimony of the band Third Day. I suggest you look at it before you judge them. It's called: Third Day Chronology volume two (2001-2006). You don't go through the trials and tribulations they went through to suddenly find God's will for their life and success, and them learning that if they do not follow certain promptings from God. then they suffer set backs.

The salvation message is: Come as you are. Not came as we want you to be or get rejected. So when such ministries draw people to Christ as they are, then it is up to us to feed them the milk and meat of the word so that the word cleans them up on the inside. Then the change on the outside begins. Forced change can lead to rejection of salvation.

Do you actually think that people will be condemned on judgement day because they played contemporary music to christian lyrics? And can you prove without a shadow of a doubt that it is a sin, even though it draws people to Christ?

Here is something to ponder. If people are being drawn to Christ through this sinful music, does that not also make the salvation they receive just as sinful? Sin does not draw a person to Christ. That is why Christ had to live a sinless life in order to be able to give us this free gift.

Basically, you cannot have it both ways. And what I mean by this is that you cannot have music ministries drawing people to Christ, and then on the other side say it's wrong. You would first have to prove a drawing power that comes from evil. I have yet to find a verse that says this.

Question: Not trying to disrespect you when I ask this. Just trying to get a point across. But do you think that the drawing power to Christ can work through a ministry of sin to give salvation?

There is no yes or no answer to that question without first clarifying some issues.

For example, we would probably disagree on the actuality of the "drawing power to Christ" that comes from the emotions elicited by a particular CCM event. Even Billy Graham has admitted that he believes 95% of those who "walked the aisle" during his crusades probably did not make honest, sincere professions that bore the fruit of actual repentence, confession and acceptance of Christ. In other words, they were probably not really saved. (1John)

Also, there are elements of rock music that truly go against biblical principles and do not honor the Lord. No matter the allegedly Christian window dressing, these elements still exist in CCM.

A written testimony is easy to write up. However, the actual testimony of CCM rock stars' lives almost invariably exhibits a different kind of fruit. That's to say nothing about the downright Satanic origins of rock music and the founders of that musical genre.

Again, Dan Lucarini lays it all out in his two books in shocking, shocking details (many of which we had to gloss over in our family read-a-louds when our children were present).

Isaac, virtually every argument you could make in favor of rock music in church is covered and answered in Dan's books, complete with personal testimonies, others' testimonies and scriptural reference. If you don't think you'll get around to reading either of his books I can answer your specific questions if you pose them one at a time and are patient about me getting back with the answer.

Dave

jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man means no man. And salvation is a commitment issue. If someone walks up because of the prompting of the Lord. But by the time he gets up there changes his mind. That does not mean that God was not in it. "Choice" is the sign of a true religion. Forced choice through fear of a lie or guilt is a cult.



Anything that hinges on the edge of the highest temptations is always going to have those who fall. This is why God tests us before He allows us to do something like this.



If I were to use your logic of stereotyping, I could condemn almost every element of the Christian faith by using examples of how good was made to look evil, or accomplish evil. Or examples of people who fell from God and never came back. Pastors who committed adultery, stole, did drugs, became drunks, etc...




With all due respect, I too could do the same thing if I stereotype all music that I disagree with. I used to do that.

If the excitement of the music can draw people forward. Why do not secular rock groups have an alter call for Satan after each concert? With the excitement their concerts have upon people, almost 100% should be coming forward for that.

Isaac,

I think we are talking apples and orangutans here. You are focusing on the rather nebulous factor of whether someone can truly come to Christ through a rock music encounter, thereby saying it is good; and I am focusing on the fact that rock music is a practice that is not pleasing to the Lord and should not be indulged in by a truly born-again Christian.

I believe that a baby, or newly-born, Christian will enjoy his rock music ... for a season ... but should hopefully begin to shed those worldly pursuits as his walk with the Lord progresses. The same could be said of many worldly pursuits -- drinking, gambling, believing in evolution, reading questionable literature, or viewing questionable movies, for example.

As we draw nearer to Christ we should attain to be more like Him. Can you imagine Christ "rocking" to the Gospel? Or using any music of evil origins to draw believers to Him? I don't think so.



Oh, Isaac. That is the tragedy. Rock concerts do draw people by the multitudes to the Prince of this World. There is an alter call. It is called a Mosh Pit. And sadly, yes, there is an almost 100% coming forward for that -- not only at the concerts themselves but among teenagers worldwide wearing their earbuds mindlessly bobbing their heads to that sensual backbeat.

Rock music has left behind a legacy of broken lives, broken families and a degraded culture. It is now in the church, with a growing legacy of split congregations, displaced long-time members, sensual services ... in other words, not too much different than the secular world.

To try to get this conversation off the general and onto the specific, if you'll pose one question, I'll try to answer it and flesh it out for you.

Dave

Dave,

The beat of rock music is not evil, it is the words that enspire a satanic envolvement that do, you must remember that you can in no way compare those christian rock bands lyrics to Marylin Mansons lyrics, you just cant.

Saying the beat of rock music is evil, is exactly like saying the cam lope of a high performance car is evil. Am I sinning for wearing protective armor that makes me look like some type of warrior while Im riding my dirtbike? I'd hope not.

Now it would be a sin if you used a car to terrorize and run over innocent people, but it would NOT be the car that was sinning, it would be the person. Same with music, its not the music, but the person singing the words. The deeds, the words, the actual committing the crime is the sin.

Also, since my car is jet black, and has cobra emblems all over it, does that make it evil simply because the snake somehow represents satan??? So, by using the line of logic that rock music is evil, then the loud exhaust sounds comming from my car on take off should also be totally evil? You know, I personally like the sound of jets, high perfomance cars and motorcycles. So it truly is hard for me to believe that the beat of rock music is evil.

Remember enjoying life and Gods gifts are not evil. Drugs, adultury, murder, alchohol, and breaking any of Gods laws are NOT his gifts, but sin.

It is Gods will that we use our talents that God gives us instead of burying them like the slothful servant. So yes, I will use my talent to play the guitar, build highperformance vehicles, find fossils, and many other abilities toward the will of God. The key to all of this and success is to put God first, not these earthly things, that is the way I live.

Absolutely right. But not because of what you think. Consider this. Our local grocery store plays CCM over the PA system. The owner, a Christian, believes he is "putting one over" on his customers -- enfusing them with "Christian" music without them realizing it. But, don't you see the irony in this? I've been in the store many times and heard customers singing the popular, rock music words along with the music. Sure, the CCM band had adapted allegedly Christian words to a popular rock tune. But ... and here's the key ... the customers weren't hearing the new lyrics! They were hearing in their heads the old, rock lyrics that went with the tune.

Furthermore, they are reliving sensual, ungodly pleasures from their past (or maybe present for all I know) that were (and still are) part and parcel of rock music culture. This dear Christian brother who owns the grocery store is actually leading his customers to have thoughts that are not of God, but of this world, and even worse.

God tells us not to put something before a brother that would cause him to stumble. That is exactly what rock music does.



Yes, and before you became a Christian you no doubt failed to understand that a lot of what you don't to do now was evil. Your personal opinions are not what counts, it's the adherence to biblical principles that are the issue.



Are you aware of studies done on animals and humans that chronicle the physiological effects that different styles of music have on them? In every single case, rock music is found to have the most negative effect ... even to the degree of affecting lifespan, sanity, etc.

So, I ask you, if something is not good and pleasing to the Lord, what is it? Is God a relativist? A little sin is OK? Of course not.

Dave

The music, or the message of the lyrics? If the music is what corrupts, then why even add lyrics to it?

Now I don't believe that a Christian group should take an existing rock music song and change the lyrics. That would bring old sin memories back. But to make a song from scratch is different. There is no sin to relate to.

Can you prove that music alone can corrupt?

Certain styles of music can, yes.

Allow me to quote some material here.



I'd say the bolded parts speak of corruption of the spirit, wouldn't you?

And because "Christian" rock musicians emulate the musical style, dress, mannerisms, graphic presentation, etc., of rock and roll there is virtually no difference. Only the words are different, but there are problems with even that ... for another topic.

Gotta get to work. More later.

Dave

Well, Rock music the beat in and of itself, is NOT evil, this is a fact. Why? Because an old oak tree sitting out in the middle of a field all by itself isnt anything, until it is used for good or bad. Then again, its not evil, the people who hanged other people on the tree, were committing the sin.

This whole arguement is like this old saying: Spoons made Rosie O' donald FAT. Therefore, spoons are evil, you can hurt people with spoons, they should be banned, or saying guns kill people, people obviously dont kill people.

Also, personally, I believe that ties and dress suits are evil, simply because evil politicians wear them, so I wont be caught dead wearing anything. Ties can be used to kill people too. So in essence everything in the entire universe is simply evil, even a matchbox car, or a lego set.

Remember, and listen carefully, all things created under the sun were made for God, until these certain things are used or created to go AGAINST God are they a sin.

On the face of it, you are right about the oak tree, the gun, the spoon. However, it reminds me of that question on the IQ test: Which one of these four items does not belong with the others?

Rock music is simply not in the same category as animate or inanimate objects created either by God or by man. Rock music is only an abstraction until put into play by a musician, or heard by a listener. Rock music is a reflection of the musician's character, personality, morality and spirituality. It simply does not exist without the guiding purpose behind it.

So, knowing that, what is the history and legacy of rock music? How about rebellion? How about drugs? How about sensuality? How about immodesty? How about losing inhibitions? How about rejecting parents authority? I can go on. Are any of these things good and pleasing to the Lord? I think not.

CCM brings into the church all of this baggage from the rock music culture. It is inescapable, unavoidable, undeniable. Turn off the sound and watch the video of any church's worship session during a heavy rock CCM musical rendition. Turn off the sound and watch the audience during a rock concert. Not much difference, huh?

You can't separate the effects of CCM on the body, the soul and spirit from the legacy of rock music no matter how much you dress it up with Christian-sounding band names, re-written lyrics, or the location where it is played. It is still rock music and all that it entails.

Scott, answer this. Tell me one good thing that has happened in our society and culture over the last 50 years or so that can be attributed to the introduction of rock music. I mean "good" in the biblical, God-pleasing sense.

Dave

I am an answer to your question, if it wasnt for rock music, I might not have gotten back to the Lord. Many people, that I have witnessed at a contemporary christian rock concert have given their lives to the Lord. Though I rarely listen to music besides riding in my car, I have been to many youth camps, and seen this personally.

We must also remember that the electric guitar was only created about 60 years ago, so those type of sounds have been used for many different reasons throughout the generations.

1950s rock = rebellion from parents(not so much being as the parents werent use to the new beat, so naturally like anyone who merely assumes but doesnt study makes it out as evil), hot rods( created 10 to 15 years before rock), a new style of music besides country/ gospel music.

1960s rock = rebellion from common sense, using drugs major drugs, ( not really rebelling against parents in a music sense, since most of the parents listened to 50s rock)
1970s rock = basically the same, but the coming on of the Satanic worshiping era.
1980s rock = the zenith of Satanic/ rock music, slowly to die out by the rap/ cocaine movement.
1990s rock = the beginning of main stream contemporary christian music, even though throughout every decade the eletric guitar was used in the church environment.
2000s rock= a plethora of contemporary christian music including rap.

Now rap, is todays problem, rock was the 1950s problem, though not really a problem in as much as rap has influenced the world 10 times more than rock EVER did. Rap, is the main cause of the degrading of the late 1980s- 2000s , this is a fact.

Because of Rap aka ©rap, todays youth is more dumbed down than ever in the recorded history of man kind. Teens today have zero clue about performance cars, they think candy pee green paint, and 33 inch chrome spinna rims are IT. They pay zero attention to God, or common sense. You can tell this by the backwards caps and underwear showing. Most think that a 4 cylinder honda civic with a bottle of nitrous is 100times better than any corvette. The youth of America are now commiting Adultery more than any other decade.

I'll tell you if contemporary christian music keeps Americans teens from listening to the likes of Lilwayne, SouljaBoy, Coldplay, and My Chemical Romance, then this country as a whole would benefit from this. Because in todays music industry Lil wayne and his ugly giant chrome rims are god, and youll be hard pressed to tell these kids any differently. Rap alone can also be contributed to very premature pregnancies in the country. Commiting adultery is the most awesome thing for todays youth today, even in the past, but not in numerous numbers as it is today.

So yes contemporary Christian music is a good thing. So yes I'll turn up my hard hitting rock music when I pull next to some poser in a candy pee green caprice (not so ) classic, and I'll lay the hammer down, drown out his music with the sound of Gods music, and rubber burning, all drowning out the sin, and all that is wrong with this country who because of Liberalism, atheism, and rap has destroyed what America once stood for. The poser will hear the Deffening sound of Truth.

On this one Dave, I think we will have to agree to disagree. If you took my last post (which is deleted) as a means of showing arrogance, I apologize.

I have no problem with being proven wrong. In fact I invite it because upon someone doing so I no longer have to waste my time on that issue believing it to be one meaning when it's another. But this can happen only with God's words, not one man's interpretation of them (i.e. established doctrine or a written book). I adhere to no particular doctrine on this issue. I am non-denominational. I allow the Word of God to guide me, and the action of God to guide me.

A person's testimony about their coming to the Lord is a very personal thing, and I hope and pray I can be delicate about what I say in reply.

What I'm thinking is that there are lots of things that people attribute to them coming to the Lord. I've known of people coming to Christ through personal tragedy, death in the family, etc. But, I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to make those things a regular part of every Sunday service in order to enhance the alter call.

Romans 8:28 is always there to assure us that even when bad things happen in our lives God can work it for the good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Should we seek out those bad things and make them a regular part of our lives in order to test God's commitment to Romans 8:28?

If you really, really think about it might you think that you were already ready to come to the Lord and something else could have nudged you to do it? Maybe you came to the Lord despite listening to rock music? Or maybe your conscience, while listening to rock music, was telling you that you needed something better, more wholesome and more Godly in your life, so you reached out to God for it?

It's just not possible that God would use something that goes against every principle He has laid out in the Bible to bring someone to Him in a lasting (1John) kind of way. I'm not questioning your faith and commitment, I'm just wondering if you are misattributing the reason or cause.

Dave

Your exactly right that God would never use something that totally goes against His will.
Thats why its perfectly acceptable for God to use rock music. Rock music comes in many different forms, good and bad. If you don't like the way an eletric guitar sounds then, thats perfectly fine. Many people dont like the way a turbocharged 6 cylinder supra sounds, and thats perfectly fine, ( mainly because they have a bias for the classical V8 sound.)

Rock music didnt make me turn my life over to Christ, I was already a Christian at the time, but it made me get back on track with the Lord. I was falling away from God, into pop music, into the part of this world that is truly corrupt, which is when man becomes lazy, doesnt know how to change his own oil, expects everything to be given to him. It was time that I grew up and realized that everything isnt all huggs and kisses. A time where I put away my country music, which was a part of main stream pop, almost totally corrupted. A time where it dawned on me, that the (majority) of gospel music, regular and rock, really gave no true inspiration or message at all.

I can tell you from experience, the music I listen to grabs at my soul, my inner workings. It helps me see the better, and offcourse I can live without rock music. But with a world filled with lazyness and blandness, it would just make it that more boring. I truly believe that the fear of rock music stems from the fear of actually having to do something, actually having to listen to something that would touch your soul.

Many christians get the mistaken view that God wants everything to be just like Leave it to Beaver, or the Waltons. So in doing so, these christians lead themselves into an unfortunate road to disaster. The perfectly dressed family, the perfect job, the perfect pansy commuter car, the perfect scooter, the perfect tree house in the back yard. These things are frivolous, and need to be delt with accordingly, because it gives a picture that these people are completely ignorant of the situation at hand.

Me I was born and raised in a Christian family, my parents dont approve of rap, pop, or any type of music that makes adultery sound fun, killing fun, all things satanic fun. I believe you get the picture, and I too completely agree with my parents.

I believe the strange belief that electric guitars are evil, stems back to the majority of the human population believing that internal combustion engines are magic, therefore they have no reason to search out a reason, or a cause, because they can have a mechanic do everything for them. Being naieve of a situation is a very bad thing to do. This is also the main reason people believe in evolution, because they are naieve, and refuse to search out truth, because they think every thing around them is perfect, already set in place, no need to see if what they are doing or not doing is wrong, or at least questionable.

Personally, if eletric guitars are evil, then I should just stop playing mine, or turn the speaker off, and play the Leave it to Beaver theme song. Either that or turn the classical music on when Im at the drag strip, which would be hilarious, I'll have to do that next time I go.

Scott,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be saying that there is nothing wrong with rock music. So, I'm wondering if you would mind listing all the benefits that our society and culture have experienced since the introduction of rock music some 50 years ago.

I'm thinking in terms of how rock music exemplifies the fruit of the Holy Spirit. After all, we're Christians. We're supposed to have put away the "old man" and be taking on our new character to be Christ-like.

Here is the verse that lists alll of them:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22)

So, if you don't mind, I'll take the list that you produce and examine each item in light of the fruit of the Holy Spirit that God expects us to exhibit.

By the way, there is no single musical note that is evil, no single musical instrument that is evil. For purposes of this conversation let's stick to the topic, the style of music exemplified by what is commonly called rock.

Dave

Which style of rock music do you presume to speak of Dave? Satanic rock? Punk rock? Pop rock? Country rock? Christian rock? Ever since rock was created in the 1950's it has been played to conform to all types. The last 50 years was the technology boom of the century, before then electronic musical instruments barely existed. I could speak of many things good and bad that different types of rock has done to the world. The past 20 years of evil could be attributed almost soley to RAP. The days of Black Sabbath, Lynnard Skynnard, ACDC, and Def Leopard are all but gone.

I believe that if this was the year 1932, and I was talking to you outside on a porch, you might be attributing Jazz to all that is wrong with the youth of the day.

Many people attribute rock music to Satanism because of the heavy metal years of the late 1970s to mid 1980s.

The lyrics, and the beat of some types of rock music may inspire people to do bad things, but these people usually are the ones who make Natural Selection seem like a good thing, and these people would make Darwin proud.

Now on to the grand list of things:

1. People being saved by the message of Christian music.
2. Listening to your favorite song with a loved one.
3. Getting off work and praising God along with the beat and being overall joyful and thankful.
4. Listening to a powerful song that speaks of longsuffering and endurance, the struggle to keep on going after a tough situation.
5. A song which makes one want to stand up for truth and righteousness.
6. A song speaking of kindess, and gentleness to your enemies, even when they least deserve it.
7. A song of self control, to hold back on harming another, to think of God first and his ways.

Oh yes, there are rock songs for each of these, many. A great multitude. But you must realize that the majority of todays youth dont see God, or his ways, or powerful and emotional music. Todays youth are blinded by pop music, as they were in the past, over and over again this happens. They dont see blandness, or the dumb in things, mostly because they aspire to be liked, hugged, kissed and coddled with fuzzy teddie bears. Their emotions run high as they try and be noticed, to be a part of the in crowd, to just go with the flow, and to never have to think. Todays youth is so indoctrinzed with MTV that they get the idea that somehow a car colored like their favorite pokemon, with huge rims, and obama stickers plastered all over it is totally awesome. They also think that high pitched girly man voiced bands like Cold Play, Hawthorne Heights, and My Chemical Romance is totally awesome.

So to answer your question, no I absolutely do NOT think all forms of rock music is good, I dont appreciate what POP ROCK has done to the American culture as a whole. I dont appreciate what punk or Satanic rock has done to America. But I do appreciate the ones who actually were meaningful.

But in the end if you dont like the sound of rock music then that is perfectly ok. Because your going to listen to the type of music you like in the first place. And also, if you dont listen to rock what do you listen to? It has to be some form of music without the use of the electric guitar, what form would that be? Because we sometimes use electric guitars for our church services, the people who plays these guitars range from ages 48 to 63. Personally I dont know of any music besides acoustic bands and classical music that does not use an electric guitar. And yes if your music you listen to has an electric guitar in it, then yes its rock.

Scott,

The things you listed are personal, subjective things ... emotions. What I was asking for was the fruit produced in our country, our society our culture by rock music.

You mentioned quite a lot of bad fruit, all of which I agree with ... drugs, sexuality, rebelliousness, etc., but what are the good fruit of rock that are the opposites of these in our culture and society?

Dave

Rock is a form of music used with electrical instruments that only fairly recently appeared. Rock or any other form of music is an expressed emotion in and of itself. Music cannot be explained as NOT being an expression of emotion, because that is exactly what it is. Obviously the majority of emotions being expressed through the use of different lyrics and musical instruments will always have the sinning world on top.

Why? Because this is a lost world, the majority of this lost world expresses lost and out of touch feelings, which lead to all the sins you see that man has done. You could attribute many more things besides rock music the reason this country has fallen quickly in the past 50 years. When its all said and done the bad will outweigh the good in any debate of a material thing.

Just posting more examples for opinions. This is Crystal Lewis. My favorite singer.





Crystal Lewis started out singing in her Father's church. She said that she soon got the calling to take her singing more solo and on the road. When many people started wanting cds of her songs, none of the recording studios would record her songs because she was a Christian, and a unknown. So her and her husband decided to get a loan and open their own recording studio. And was turned down by all the banks. The last bank almost signed it. So the next day they invited the bank president and loan officers to a private concert. the next day they got their loan.

Her Father first objected to the type music she would be singing to. He later approved when he saw how many were coming to Christ through the message in her singing.

You guys can continue to debate this. I was just posting more examples to try and draw more opinions from other here at the forum.

Dave,

I just want to know what evil you can attribute contemporary christian rock music to. I agree with ikester's explaination in the original post.

Hello Scott,

I haven't abandoned you. Things have been really hectic around here, and time is an issue.

What I'm thinking I'd like to do is narrow down the discussion somewhat by shifting the debate from the "evils of rock music" to something more basic. If someone is an enthusiast of the rock music, or even CCM, culture and gives basically emotional or personal responses to questions about his preferences, then there really is no debating it.

So, how about if we try this?

Let's bring the debate into the realm of the church, and specifically worship. But, first, let's begin by getting on the same page with what those terms mean.

If you don't mind going first, please define from a Biblical perspective what is the church, and what is meant by worship and how God intends the church to worship.

I believe if we can come to agreement on these two issues the place of CCM in church and worship will be self-evident to anyone who has a discerning spirit. If we can't come to agreement, then that will be evidence enough that we shouldn't be debating this topic in the first place because we're just simply not talking about the same things.

Sound like a plan?

Dave

Sounds like a plan,

Ok, I'll start. The church is the people who come together to learn more about Gods word and His Will. Worship can be defined by what we do, like praising God through music, and studying His Word. Worship is an overall combination of things we do in and out of Church (the building).

Now, where does CCM come to play in our worship? I believe that it is a form of worship outside the Church building, it is a form of worship used to convert people. By this I mean, a form of mission work. But, on occasian it can be used in place of our hymnals, because generally it uses the same message, guided by instruments other than a piano, or organ.

Our church, usually on Sunday nights, will have a band to come play, and have a Revival, that is we have preachers from other churches come to preach as well. But, this is only on special occasions.

But you may have a difference of opinion.

Hi Scott,

I'll tell you what I believe the Bible says about church, and we'll see if it agrees with your definition.

But first I need to backtrack a bit and state that there is a huge gulf between the biblical, apostolic church and what passes for church these days. If you read Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 very carefully, you'll find that Jesus has very little good to say about the church as it has evolved throughout history. Today's institutionalized, denominational, "seeker friendly," emergent, wordly church simply bears no resemblance to the body of believers that Jesus left behind upon his ascension 2,000 years ago.

According to the Bible, The Church is the body of believers that make up the body of Christ. Acts 2 has some verses that sum up pretty well what the first church consisted of. There are many more.



Basically, The Church is made up of believers assembling for teaching and discipleship (Acts 2:43), fellowship with other believers (Acts 2:44 and 1Cor 6:14), breaking of bread, communion and shared meals (Acts 2:46), and praising God (worship) and praying together (Acts 2:42, 47).

All this was to be done with the body being in "one accord" (Acts 2:46).

During the apostolic era churches were basically what we would call home churches. Believers would go out into their communities, make new believers, and then -- only then -- bring them into the fellowship of the church. The church "service" was definitely not to be used to evangelize non-believers or to be conducted in a worldly, pagan way to attract non-believers off the street so they could possibly win them to Christ. Church is to disciple and edify those who were already in the body of Christ, and encourage them to go out and win new believers.

Throughout the epistles we read where those who violated God's principles regarding the church are brought under church discipline.

Also, there is nowhere in the New Testament where God says that any music, let alone pagan-style music, should be used to lure non-believers into the church.

I'm running out of time. I'll address worship next time.

Dave

Hello Dave,

I totally agree, with the way you presented how the Biblical church was. There is a big difference between todays church and the church from the apostolic era.

Your right, todays mainstream (worldy churches) are a good bit liberal in the way they conduct themselves. They let anyone and everyone come into the church building, but those people who do, aren't a part of the real church, that makes up the body of Christ. In todays environment it's hard to judge who is and who isn't a part of the body of Christ, by this you know I mean saved. No one, can judge the hearts of men besides God. However, we can get a pretty clear idea of these people by the fruit they are producing.

Looking back at the apostolic era, we notice why the churches were smaller, and for good reason. Back then, Christianity wasn't very well accepted, and if you were to be found out to be one, there could be some serious consequences. Such as being beatin, imprisonment, or death. This also gives good reason for not openly playing music to attract converts.

This is why most early christianity was underground, christains made entire cities underground that could hold up to 3,000 to 50,000 people. Derinkuyu, Turkey, is a good example of this. This also brings up a good question, though off topic, as to if christianity was false, then why did they fight so hard to survive, and spread the truth.

Though praising God through psalms and music may not have been mentioned in the new testament, I am quite sure the early Christians used songs to help lighten the load of stress they were receiving from the pressures of the anti- Christ people of the day. Because I believe that music was more of a tradition back then, than it is today.

Now, today, the sound of electric gutiars , cannot be soley attributed to Satanic movements, because when this technology became available, it was available to all people, good and bad. Drums cannot be soley attributed to the Satanic movement, because drums are one of the oldest known musical instruments known to man, that have been used by the Hebrews of the old testament.

In and of itself, the guitar can be viewed as the more advanced version of the Harp. Rock music, is just a simple way of saying, those musical lyrics are accompanied by the electric guitar. Now, whether or not someone is going to use an instrument for or against God, is up to them.

I believe the confusion about rock music, stems from the majority of rock music being used for evil, such as sex, drugs, and violence. Now, if you were listening to a rock song that was glorifying those 3 things, then I would have to seriously consider not listening to it, but if the rock song was glorifying God, then I might just have to leave that song playing.

Does anything I said go along with what you believe?

Hi Scott,

OK. Now on to worship. There might be some surprises in store for you here.

What is worship? How does God expect to be worshipped?

Again, as always, the Bible gives us the final word.

95% of the time when worship is mentioned in the Old Testament the word used is "sachah," which means to prostrate in homage to God, to bow down, to humbly beseech, to do reverence.

In the New Testament, the word most commonly used for worship is proskuneo, which means to kiss like a dog licking his master's hand, to fawn or crouch down, to prostrate oneself in homage.

Some example scriptures:



So, you can see that worship is to be accompanied with the attitude of abject humility, subservience, reverence and awe, and in a posture expressing those characteristics. Certainly these are rare in today's church, much less in our society in general -- what with decades of "self-esteem" being taught in the government school systems.

What's interesting is the number of times that God uses worship in the Bible in conjunction with sin -- man worshipping idols, other gods, riches, power, prideful things.

Here's an example that stood out for me. God relates an event that specifically uses "all kinds of musick" to call everyone to worship a false god.



There are two ideas we can take away from the biblical descriptions of church and worship:

1) That was then, and this is now. Things are different. We've progressed beyond that bow down, humility stuff. Nobody would come to church if we did all that biblical stuff.

2) God means what He says, says what He means, and never changes.

So, either church and worship are what God has expressed in His Word that it should be, or it is something else, a product of fallen flesh, and a worldly view.

Where exactly does CCM fit into these idesa? Number 1 or Number 2?

Dave

Israelite prophets were musicians. During the exodus Miriam the prophetess, taking her tambourine, led the women in song and dance, celebrating the Lord's triumph over the Egyptians (Exod. 15:20-21). Saul encountered a band of sanctuary prophets who prophesied accompanied by instruments (1 Sam. 10:5). Isaiah composed songs, including one celebrating the Lord's deliverance of those who trust in him (Isa. 26:1-6). The public regarded Ezekiel as "one who has a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument" (33:32).

David, a musician as well as a warrior, established the place of music in the worship of the Lord. Even before the sacrifices had been moved to Jerusalem, he instructed the Levitical musicians to celebrate the ark's journey to Zion (1 Chron. 15:16-24), and appointed Asaph as chief musician in charge of continual thanksgiving and praise (1 Chron. 16:1-7). The description of this activity (1 Chron. 25:1-7) suggests that these musicians led in a spontaneous and overwhelming outpouring of worship, especially at high moments like the dedication of Solomon's temple (2 Chron 5:11-14). This may be the "new song" to which the Psalms refer (33:3, 40:3, 96:1, 144:9, 149:1). Many Psalms perhaps originated in this pre-temple Davidic worship centering around the ark of the covenant.

In the temple, music functioned as a "sacrifice of praise," an offering of song to accompany the offering of sacrifice. Under the Judean rulers, the performance of music became regulated and standardized. The titles of 55 Psalms refer to the music director, with instructions for performance on various instruments or using certain tunes. This psalmody remained a feature of Israelite and Jewish worship. After the exile, Ezra recruited more than 200 Levites for service in the sanctuary (Ezra 8:18-20). First-century Jewish sources indicate that the choir of Herod's temple consisted of at least twelve adult male singers, with no upper limit. Singers served between the ages of thirty and fifty, after a five-year training period. The sources also describe the instruments in use at that time.

After the Babylonian exile, most Jews lived in the Dispersion (areas outside of Palestine) and could not participate in temple worship. Therefore the synagogue arose for prayer and the study of the Scriptures. The Psalms continued to be sung, and other portions of the Scriptures as well as prayers were chanted according to a developing system of "modes." Such Jewish music influenced the worship of the early church.

Israelite worship music was both vocal and instrumental; the sanctuary orchestra contributed to the celebration of Israel's covenant with the Lord. Its instruments fall into the same general classes with which we are familiar — percussion, winds (pipes) and strings. Horns, trumpets, cymbals, harps and lyres were used when the ark was brought to Mount Zion, and their continued use is reflected in their mention in the Psalms. The sanctuary instruments were not solo instruments, but sounded simultaneously to call the assembly to worship (Psa. 98:6). Strings and pipes, if used, probably played the modalities (tune elements) in the psalm being sung, with perhaps distinctive patterns of ornamentation. Horns, trumpets and cymbals added to the festive joy by creating a larger sound. The selah of the Psalms may have been an instrumental interlude, or a "lifting up" of sound by both singers and instrumentalists. Tambourines, usually played by women, are mentioned in connection with dancing at Israelite festivals (Psa. 68:25), but were not used in the sanctuary where only men served as priests and musicians.

What did the music of Israel's worship sound like? While we cannot know today exactly how it sounded, recent research has confirmed the similarity between Hebraic music and ancient forms of Christian chant. Biblical music incorporated several characteristic features:

Monophony, the use of an unharmonized melodic line — although ornamentation and instrumental accompaniment could create a primitive form of harmony.
Modality refers to the use of various musical motifs within a certain scale, each with its own function.
Ornamentation, the use of enhancements suited to the skill of the performer.
Rhythm — Semitic music does not use the regular beat of modern Western music but has a more complex pattern of time structuring.
Scale — Semitic music follows a generally diatonic melody, but with some use of quarter-tone intervals as well as whole or half tones.
Improvisation, the practice of composing the music in the process of performing it using skills acquired through a long period of training.
Antiphony — In antiphonal music, groups of performers answer one another in statement and response. Examples in biblical worship may be found in the Psalms (Pss. 24, 118) and the "Holy, holy, holy" of Isaiah's seraphim (Isa. 6:3), in a vision no doubt influenced in its expression by the chanting of priestly choirs. This last feature suggests that the congregation, as well as trained musicians, may have been involved in the musical responses of the service.

Etc...

http://www.laudemont.org/index.html?MainFr...rg/a-mawitb.htm

I guess there really is nothing new under the sun. Because when the Israelites used the musical instruments to praise God, we must also remember that at that time, people used those same instruments to praise their false gods.

Just like today, musicians can use their music to serve God, or to serve the world. The majority has always been people serving the world, and the only time this will change is when Jesus comes back.

Scott and Isaac,

I hope I haven't given the impression that I am against music. We have in our family quite a few musical instruments: 3 guitars, 1 violin, 1 mandolin, 1 autoharp, 1 piano, probably a dozen and a half recorders and Irish tin whistles, 1 complete set of bagpipes, several practice chanters (for quieter bagpipe practice), 1 5-string bluegrass banjo, 1 hammered dulcimer, a couple of harmonicas, and several ocarinas. Someone in our family is playing at least one, if not several, of these instruments pretty much daily.

As you can guess, our musical tastes run mostly to folk -- American and Scottish/Irish -- plus, we play and sing quite a few hymns, and my wife is accomplished at playing classical pieces on the piano.

To state that there was a lot of music in the Old Testament is to overstate the obvious -- but it is hardly germane to the discussion. The direction I was trying to take this discussion is toward an understanding of how music can and should fit today into biblical worship during a gathering of believers at a biblically-true church. I believe God has given us a lot of direction in that regard, and believe it would be instructive for us to look at what He says about it.

That's why I don't want to get sidetracked into discussions about electric guitar vs. acoustic, for example. I believe once we agree on what a true Godly church is (or is supposed to be) and what true Godly worship is we'll be able to discern what is the style of music that pleases God's ears, shows honor and glory to Him, and bestows grace on us for worshipping Him according to His desires, not our own fleshly preferences.

Part three in my discussion will center on "unity," God's desire for believers to be in one accord.

Dave

Dave,

I notice you use the phrases: true Godly church, biblically-true church.

If a church adheres to true biblical principles. But does not do what you think they should do as far as music is concerned. Have they fallen from grace? And is every one that is saved only saved through the excitement of the music in the church?

Christ made it very clear in scripture that those who come to know Christ are drawn to Christ through God the Father "only". It is never said any where in scripture that there is any other power that can draw someone to Christ. So to say or imply that the excitement of music can draw a person forward to accept Christ is like also claiming there is another way to Heaven. And to also imply that the ones who come forward in places where the music you disapprove is being played are not saved. Is to also imply that you have God knowledge and are implying judgement as such. Neither of these claims can be supported biblically.



With all due respect, what I see here is a person who has become "bias" of certain instruments and music that these instruments can produce. Banjos can be played to promote sin, Or to praise God.

Example: The woman singer I listed above (Crystal Lewis) is part of my testimony of how I was drawn back to God when I had strayed so far away. Now because you have implied here that the excitement of music can produce the same draw as the calling for salvation. Would that also mean that my coming back was false? And on the other end of this issue, what if I thought that this music was not right because I was taught such things by me religion? And because of that I was never drawn back? Would not that teaching just denied me of salvation?

You cannot claim that music you disapprove of does certain things, then recant it for certain conditions (just in case you say you see nothing wrong with Crystal's music). What is evil will always be evil, and cannot draw anyone to Christ period.

So me listening to her music and song, and being drawn back to Christ. What would you say was the drawing power here?

Just using God's descriptions from His own words.



Can a church follow some of God's principles, and not others remain in God's graces very long? A little leaven corrupts the whole lump. In Jesus' own words (Rev. 2-3) there are many churches that have already fallen far from his grace.



I'm sorry, I cannot parse your question enough to answer that. Can you rephrase it?



Again, I can't parse your non-sequitor question into any fashion that I can answer . Can you rephrase it.



No offense, but that's a "Duh" kind of thing. Of course I am biased in my choice of instruments and music. Who isn't? The question before us is if our choices and biases please or displease the Lord.



Again, I have no idea what you are talking about that I "have implied here that the excitement of music can produce the same draw as the calling for salvation."



What I was attempting to do in this discussion is get away from personal, preferencial experience and show how believers following God's principles from the Bible will choose a musical worship style that pleases the Lord. It's got nothing to do with what I approve or disapprove of.



I'd suggest your answer can be found in a thorough, honest, sincere examination of yourself meditating verse by verse through the book of 1John.

Dave

Then here you just relayed that your opinion is in this debate as well. I tried to get you to show me where people can be drawn forward to Christ because of music and not God. And I have yet to see anything to confirm this. There is only one way to heaven, right? So to say there is also another drawing power through music, that does not include God, is claiming another way to Heaven.

Example: The only way to heaven is to accept Christ right? But then Christ said that the only drawing power to Him was by the Father God. So one controls the salvation, while the other controls who gets drawn to get salvation. And I can supply scripture to support both. But you imply that there is another drawing power not of God that is only because of music. I have yet to see any scripture to support this yet.

In fact, how does God show His approval in a ministry?

And how does God show His disapproval in a ministry?

Or is it determined by the individual who decides to judge such things?

You will never guess that I was once against this type of music being in ministry. But once I realized what the sign of God's approval was, I then also realized that it was not up to me to make such a judgement. If I did not understand why certain ministries were getting approval with things I did not approve of. Then there is something wrong with my thinking and not God's.

Which can relay to several things:
No Pastor, minister, etc... is perfect. God works on these people even while they are in ministry. So while they run there ministry, is God supposed to condemn it why they make mistakes? Because if God requires perfection from his shepherds, as you seem to imply. Then every ministry upon this earth would be out of His will.

Name a perfect ministry, and I'll sell you ocean front property in Arizona.

So if God tolerates imperfect ministries. To what point is the imperfection tolerated? And what variables does God use to determine this? I don't know and neither do you. So how do we determine what is being approved of? I determine it by God's drawing power to His Son in a ministry. I have yet to see you refute this by using any scripture, only opinion.



Can evil draw a person to the Son of God? Yes or no? If you say yes, then support it with scripture.



Okay, to get to the core base of this. I can conclude that you do not approve of Third Days music. So when people get saved and come to know the Lord because of this music ministry. What was the drawing power that led them to Christ?

1) Was it God? Which can be supported by scripture.
2) Or Was it music only? Which is not supported by scripture as an alternative drawing force.

jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now can you take this verse and truly imply that there is another drawing power to Christ other than Father God?

And where did I get the idea that you implied another drawing force?



And then you more or less imply that any testimonial written by anyone who would even be associated with CCM is lying.



If people are getting saved, what other kind of fruit are they producing?

Now I do know that some bands are a total bad representation of our Lord. But what you are doing here is stereotyping everyone that is associated in a certain group. If God did this, no one on this earth would be going to Heaven. This is because we can all be stereotype as sinners.

Here is some more music by the Isaac's:





So what determines music as evil? What words it is sung to, or how it's played? And where would this be supported in scripture?

Isaac,

You seem obsessed about going down this particular rabbit trail, even though it has nothing to do with the biblical appropriateness of rock music in the Lord's church. So, I'll answer it, hoping we can move on.

If I really work hard at trying to parse your obfuscation of this issue, I come up with this paraphrase to get to the nut of what you are saying:

You are saying that rock music can't be evil because people come to the Lord after listening to it.

Then you taunt me to prove from scripture either that evil can be used to lead people to the Lord (you're hoping, of course, that I can't do that) or to fail to find the scripture, which proves your case that rock music isn't evil because it brings people to the Lord.

Correct me if I'm wrong so far.

To answer your question: Yes, God has used evil people, bad circumstances, and tragedies to draw people to Him. There are so many examples throughout the Bible and historically, I don't know where to begin.

Noteably, Exodus 9:16 is a very good example -- "And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

God is talking about using Pharoah's stiff-necked, unrepentent, murderous character to insure that the Israelites would follow Moses out of Egypt and into the promised land. Please note that God not only allowed the evil Pharaoh to perform that role, but He raised him up for that purpose!

Would you suggest that because God used an evil person like Pharaoh to bring people to where He wanted them Pharaoh would be an OK person to be worship leader at your church?

WWII is full of so many stories illustrating how God used evil circumstances to bring people to Him. The big picture is how Hitler's persecution of the Jews is actually responsible for beginning their return to the Holy Land that was needed to progress to these end times. God used Hitler to draw His people back to where he wanted them to be so they could eventually recognize Him as Lord and Savior.

In fact, historically, the greatest church growth comes during times of the worst persecution of the saints.

Would you suggest that Hitler would be a great pastor for your church? Or that you should employ assassins to come in and shoot up your church once in awhile?

A specific event during WWII was Corrie TenBoom's experience. She relates how lice were so bad in the concentration camp it was driving everybody crazy. She, however, prayed to thank God for the lice. When asked by the other inmates how she could do that she explained that the lice is what was keeping the German jailers away from their building, thus sparing the women from "visits" from the men. Her faith and testimony about that incident has won many, many souls.

Would you suggest that it would be a good thing to sprinkle a bucket of lice around the next time your church gets together for a potluck?

I think the biggest, most poignant example is from the Lord Jesus Himself. "Isa 53:10 -- Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him;" speaking of Christ's time on the cross.

Surely, no man has ever suffered like Christ did, both physically and emotionally, having come from being God, the son of God, spotless, beautiful, righteous, to being nailed to a tree like so much meat, taking on the sins of the world. Yet, God said it pleased Him to do that!

A watcher during that time would be excused for thinking there was a major tragedy going on. However, God had a purpose for putting his son through that.

Would you suggest that there should be a ritual cross nailing by some volunteer during your average church service? Of course not.

There are many, many examples from the Bible, both Old and New Testament where God used evil people and tragic circumstances to bring people closer to Him. However, nobody, especially God, suggests that those things should be used on a continuous basis by fleshly man in a church service to draw people to Him.

I hope this settles that particular issue for you Isaac.

So, that brings us back to the issue of whether someone can be saved by rock music, and if that justifies its use during a meeting of the Body of Christ.

Statistically and historically, it is shown that only a very small minority of rock music "converts" are truly saved if given the 1John test of assurance of salvation. You have to realize that someone has to make up the group who Jesus talks about that He "never knew." So, you have to admit that it happens.

What is tragic about the multitudes who profess faith as believers at a rock concert because of the emotional appeal but who aren't truly saved is that they might never really take the steps to truly accept Jesus Christ as savior, receive the Holy Spirit, and be saved. There are probably untold millions out there who have been lead to their everlasting doom at rock concerts simply because they have believed a lie and think they already have the truth.

I've already taken up more time than I have available in following your rabbit trail. Next time, I'll return to my exposition of whether or not rock music is appropriate for church worship.

Dave

Taunt you? You require of me what cannot be produced by you.



Pharoah had already been condemned because of what he was born into. Moses was not condemned because his parents were not the same as Pharoah.

Also sin is what brings the rest that comes upon us. And if we need to be tested like Job, then that also brings these things. But this is through God lifting His hand of protection from us. It is not a direct action of God. Unless it is God's rath for sin. And that is always pointed out in scripture.



Would it have been better to use a Christian to do that? Hitler choose his path. God used that path to get the job done. Now some might make the claim that Hitler was Christian. Hitler gave that up. But he used religion to make people that were gulible think he was on their side. Through that mistake on their part for trusting Hitler, many found out that he was a pathalogical liar. He even went as far as to have the crosses removed from Nazi soldiers graves in favor of pagan symbols.

[attachmentid=176]



Yes because some people have to fall into a deep hole before they will look up.



And for what reason would you say that? This debate is not a one up game. And you just proved to me that this is more of a personal opinion by that comment.



This was to show that good can be found in anything, if you look hard enough.



Here again you are making uncalled for comments.



It pleased Him because God knew how many souls would be saved from hell. If you could take a beating for a loved one, so that they did not have to suffer, would you? If a person who held you and a family member hostage, gave you the choice of your whole family being beaten. Or just you. What would you choose? We are called sons and daughters of God for a reason. We are part of that family. Christ had the choice, He made the choice of the cross. And it pleased God because he would only have to punish one for sins committed and not millions. Which would you choose? And which would please you? One to punish, or millions?



And what you imply is that false churches can bring people to Christ as well as real ones. So if I use that logic, it really does not matter what church I go to, right?



I don't see what you see. And I don't believe that God would ever draw anyone to His son through a deceptive ministry.



And could you claim that every person that walks forward in your church is saved? You are claiming knowledge that is impossible to have. Salvation is an individual choice. And people can change their minds.



What is the requirement for salvation?

rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Faith and belief save you. A tool of evil or deception cannot draw a person to a rightous God. There is a difference between what is purely evil, and what can be made evil.

Example: The word of God can be made to use as an excuse to do evil. Does that make it evil? The word is a tool, just like music is a tool. It's how you use the tool that makes it evil or good.



You call my subject a rabbit trail because you cannot address it directly. And you prefer to use a book instead of the Bible to prove what you believe. One person's experience does not determine everyone else's. Just because one person could not deal with the temptations of rock music does not mean another person cannot. We all have our weaknesses, the book you refer to maybe someone who writes about his weakness, and then stereotypes it to a whole category of music because he refuses to see that it applies to him, and not everyone else.

To sell a book you have to convince everyone that you are right. I don't see where that book can make that case using the Bible. This is why his book is more based on personal experiences and opinions than Biblical support. One verse I use to gauge things by that never fails me is:

2tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

What is the power denied?

jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The verse is as clear about this as one can be (no man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him). The book you refer to denies this. I cannot be a part of this. The word instructs me to turn away.

1) You imply, using that book, that evil can save people. And that God would use this to do so.
2) You imply, using that book, that dececption can save people. And that God can use this to do so.
3) You imply, using that book, that there is more than one drawing power to Christ. And that denies what is written clearly on this subject.
4) You imply, using that book, that God will use what ever means available to save someone whether it be good or evil. And evil person is controlled by Satan. God hardened the heart of Pharoah, He did not put the words into Pharoah's mouth. What was in his heart came out.

If God can do all of these things, then how can He look into an unsaved sinners eyes, and with full holliness and rightousness, condemn them to hell when He looks no better?

Basically, the book implies that God can use sin for salvation. I don't believe that. There is no exempt status in Heaven for sin. Why do you think Lucifer was cast out?

Isaac,

You asked me for examples of how evil people, evil practices, or evil circumstances had been used by God to bring people closer to Him. I gave the examples. If you don't like my examples, I'm sorry.

I refuse to continue to waste time chasing down this rabbit trail of one's personal preference for different styles of music. What one chooses to listen to, or worship, is strictly between him and God. It is not a salvation issue, and not germane to my main reason for being in this discussion -- the appropriateness of a music style for worship in a body of believers practicing in a Godly church the way God would have it.

Isaac, let me ask you the same question I asked Scott, only reworded slightly. Can you show me the fruit, from scripture, of the introduction of rock music into the assembly of the body of Christ?

I don't care what people listen to on their iPods while walking down the street, or in the privacy of their own homes. I want to talk about rock music in church, and whether it pleases, or displeased God.

OK?

Dave

We are talking about church right? I don't see a church of Satan bringing people to Christ. I don't see AC/DC concerts bring people to Christ. And I don't see AC/DC bands playing in churches either.

Those are evil examples.



But, based on a person's book, you are doing the exact same thing. You don't see it because you are stuck on believing that you are right and every one else is wrong who disagrees. I like all types of music. Just don't put me in a room with elevator music I would go insane. But that don't make it evil.



Was God lying when this was said: jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.




Can you show me where Satan ever created anything?

You say that Rock music is evil, correct?

mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Like I said before, what is evil is evil and can never bring forth fruit for the kingdom. So God's drawing power can never be in it. "Music", as a whole, was created by God. Just because someone takes a certain type and tries to corrupt it, it is still "music" that was created by God.

Life was created by God also. Just because we choose sin with that life, does that make us to corrupt to ever bring someone to Christ? Sin corrupted "music", and any "music" can be used to promote sin. But that does not make God's creation uncorruptable.

When God takes a man who is into drugs, drinking, p*rn, etc... And cleans him up. Is He not taking the corrupted and making them uncorrupted? So if we take the music, that God created to be played. Music that has been used to promote sin. Take it and clean it up and put it in the church to be used for the kingdom. And it draws fruit, because it is God's creation. Does not that show that the corrupt can become uncorrupt according to how it is used?

mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is a defining line between good and evil that you deny all through this thread. A line that keeps one from being the other. And baring of fruit as being the sign.



Can evil be overcome with good?

rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

If a church invited a band like AC/DC to play, do you honestly think people will be drawn to God? No? Now why do you think that is? The tree, which is the "people" who play the music, can never produce the fruit of what they do not represent. The tree is not the music, it's the individual who plays that music.

mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

AC/DC can never produce good fruit for the kingdom because the people (trees) are corrupt. Not the music.

And the reason the same type of music can in church is because the people (trees) in the church playing the music are not corrupt. Non-corrupt trees bring forth the fruit of the kingdom.

Isaac,

Thank you for bringing the discussion back to the church.

By the bolded quotes above can I presume that you are saying that rock music as it is played in the church produces good fruit, and therefore is incapable of producing bad fruit?

God has something to say about it. That's important, isn't it? What God has to say about the fruit, good or bad, of a worship style in church?

Dave

I don't get what you are saying. There seems to be no point made in that last post.

And if you imply that I'm not following God in this, please point out where I missed God.

Isaac,

OK. On to rock music and the church.

I hope we understand and agree that by “church” it is meant the church, the body of Christ, not necessarily the corner Presbyterian, Lutheran or Methodist building with its congregation in Anytown, USA.

First some review. To save time and typing, please allow me to repeat what I believe is a good exposition of the church from my earlier post to Scott:



Are we in agreement so far?

OK. On to worship.

Again, may I bring some information down from an earlier post?