A quick question for our evo friends...

Has the "stuff" (matter) of the universe always existed, that is, is it ...eternal... or was it created?

Thats an avenue of ongoing scientific investigation. Also, why have you only limited yourself to two possibilities?

Do you have a third?

They could be spontaneously generated and then decay. There are lots of possibilities.

I don't believe that it is an avenue of ongoing scientific investigation. If it was scientist would have to have some clue on how to investigate it and there would be actual scientist to invest the question.

As it is right now, no one is investigating it because there are no means of investigation.

Unless of course I am wrong and you know of a group who are investigating this and how they intend to do that?





I’m sorry, but that is not a possibility.
The Law of Conservation of Energy/Matter states that energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but can change its form.

How is that a 3rd?

It's something you didn't think of.

So where is this arguement going anyway?

Well, yeah, this is an ongoing scientific investigation. And yes, we do have the means to study it. Granted, we can't go back in time and look at the beginning of the universe, if such an event actually exists, but we can make hypotheses and test these. For example, you know those giant particle accelerators in Europe? Those are used to re-create conditions similar to the beginning of the universe.

Here's an article from Wiki

Here's a journal article on the beginning of the universe.

Another article on ongoing investigation

Problem is, our technology limits the amount of energy we can supply to a particle. But, fortunately, these particle accelerators are getting stronger. And with better technology comes the ability to better research these conditions.

And yes, the law of conservation of energy does say that energy cannot be created or destroyed. But, if we take the entire universe as our system, it is possible that the net energy of our universe is zero. Hence all the research into 'dark energy.' It's also possible that something existed prior to 'The Big Bang.' Maybe our universe cycles every trillion years or so, springing back on itself in an infinite loop. But, there is not yet a way to show this, for if there existed anything prior to the big bang, all information was destroyed.

The Problem in your articles is that they are all dividing by zero and pretending like it is a real expression or a concept that represents reality in the formation of the universe. There are no point singularities. You can not divide by zero.




If something existed before the "big bang" the law of conservation states that it would still exist. No matter how big your bang is.

Even if all the net energy in the universe is equal to zero, that doesn't make the matter dissappear.

So anyway the OP's orginal question still stands out to the evolutionist. Where did all the matter come from?

Translation....I never had a 3rd. I just typed it because I thought it sounded good and nobody would call me on it.

Since the theory of evolution makes no mention whatsoever of where all the matter in the universe came from, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that science is just not sure yet.

Now I have a question, where did God come from?

God is and always was and always will be. He didnt come from anywhere,

Fortunate for us christians the bible has an answer.

I'm going to take the time to type it up, even though I don't think you care and no one will read it.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavans and the earth......

There was no PLACE for God to come FROM. So God didn't come from anywhere.

So my next question to you is this, why couldn't matter, or the universe in general, have always been there?

I'm no expert, but I believe the answer to your question could be found in a study of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

"Always" is a really super-powerful word. It doesn't mean "for a long time," or "for a very long time," or even "for a very, very long time." It means absolutely, eternally forever in the past.

So, when a law that is recognized by all scientists without controversy states that eventually the universe will run down, it doesn't leave much room for "always been there."

Which, by the way, is a strong point for Biblical creation.

Dave

But that's where the Big Bang comes in; I was merely proposing a hypothetical to counter the idea that God has always been there. The scientific concensus is that the universe as we know it has not always been there. So indeed, the universe may be "running down" but that is no reason to think that it is not 14 billion years old. The scale of the word "always" as you mentioned is really only matched by the unimaginable immensity of the universe. Simply put, it is going to take a a very long to time for the universe to completely "run down."

That brings me to another interesting question, why isn't God affected by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?

Well, that takes us right back to the question in the original post. If the universe didn't always exist, there must have been nothing there. So, where did the universe come from?

Possible answers:

1.) Nothing
2.) Something
3.) Special creation

If the answer is number 1, you'd have to be a magician to convince anyone the universe could just spring naturalistically from nothing. Big Bang -- First there was nothing. Then it exploded. Right.

If the answer is number 2, what is that "something?" And how could there be a something if there was nothing?

So, what's keeping folks from believing the logical answer, number 3?

To answer your other question about God, He is not subject to the laws of the universe.

Dave

The evo theory seems to suggest that...so perhaps you can explain it....or is you theory based upon FAITH?

Because God invented it.

He existed before it did and encompasses it.

Science is simply not completely sure yet where the universe came from and what was there before the Big Bang. Notice I use the word "yet" because science is always progressing. It is absurd to think that humanity will ever know all there is to know about the universe but fortunately that will not stop the inquisitive among us from trying; the polar opposite, it seems, of "God did it." I also think its interesting how two seperate explanations have been offered as to why God is not affected by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics:


And:

A question to Trilobyte, are you saying that inventors cannot be affected by their inventions? What if I build a robot and it ends up harming me in some way?

However, I was able to find this rather interesting article which explains what we call the "big bang" in terms of superstring theory. It is a very interesting read.
article

That would answer the Orginal Question. I wouldn't really agrue with it, but how do other old earth evolutionist feel about that?

If you tell me a rock is 9.23423^100000 years old, you should also have some theory on where it came from or how it came to be.

As far as I know, no other old earthers are teaching that matter is infinitely old.

I like your answer better though, you should put that in the text books !

From your link...
Moreover, they say the Big Bang is just the latest in a cycle of cosmic collisions stretching infinitely into the past and into the future.


All this does is then move the question back...where did that matter and stuff that collided come from? Did it always exist or was it created?

Concerning the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics..and your robots...how is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics going to harm God?

The matter just keeps getting destroyed and created again. You also underestimate the effect the idea of multiple dimensions would have on cyclical cosmic collisions. And I feel I must ask, why is the onus on me to provide answers to your questions? I never claimed to definitively know to answer to any of them. You're as capable as I am of researching the answers to your queries.



Well, if something I created could hypothetically harm me, why can't something God created, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, harm Him? If entropy affects everything, why would God be excused from that?

That's like asking if God can create a rock so big and heavy that even He can't lift it.

Where are you trying to take this discussion?

I'm just offering a hypothetical that has to do with the topic of this thread. And I disagree that my question is just like the "rock so heavy..." question because my hypothetical does not require any omnipotent ability to answer. I provided a non-supernatural example of a creator, me, being affected by his creation, a robot. Now, what makes God different? If God is truely outside the laws of nature, how can He affect the natural world at all?

Because He made it.

Because he made what, exactly?

Everything.

Fair enough. Then answer me this, do you think God is a part of nature or do you think He's outside of it?

Whatever God is, he something that trancends the physical universe. He exists outside of it, but I think the Bible teaches that he also permeates it, and holds it together.

Terry

It does not effect him because he is not strictly a material being. Not everything that exists is subject to the laws of physics. E.g. Information exists, and it is not subject the the laws of physics.

In fact without information, life would not be possible, which is why its untenable to hold the position that information came about without God as the author. I.e. information is not a property of matter, so there can never be striclty a materislitic explantion for it, or life.

Terry

So, God exists both within the grasp of and outside of nature? Is He affected by natural processes at all? If not, how can he be affected by natural emotions such as jealousy or rage; examples of which there are myriad in the Bible. If so, then how can He be both omniscient and omnipresent?

I guess what I'm getting at here is, just so we can stay on topic: who designed God? If the answer is, "no one, he was always there." Then why can't the energy of the universe have always been there, infinitely colliding with other three dimensional worlds whose dimensions we cannot see, as is described in the article to which I linked a few posts previous?



Information is a construct of humanity; it is merely a way of quantifying and explaining the natural processes which occur all around us. Just as the letter "A" means nothing without a human who speaks English to interpret it. And even if the existance of information proves the existance of a creator, it does not prove the existance of the Judeo-Christian god.

God (Jesus) is the creator...not the creation.

That's the job of the bible and the Holy Spirit.
You should study prophecy...some pretty interesting events that have happened and will happen as predicted by the bible.

So God has always been there?

Your insult is unbecoming of a christian.

Yes. The bible teaches God has always been there.

I am He who exist.
God is self existent being who posseses intrinsically the power of being, not self created. He has his being of himself, and has no dependence upon any other.

Considering the law of noncontradiction states the concept of self creation violates the law. For something to create itself it must have the ability to be and not to be at the same time. It is impossible to be, before, it is. Hence the contradiction.
It is then easy to reach a conclusion that God is intrinsic due to his very nature. It is by this nature that God is distinguished or identified. He is who exist. Never did He not exist and therfore no need for a creator as some suggest.

God is without termination or finitude, He is free from the succession of time, He recognized a succession of events, but all past present and future events are equally vivid to Him. We as humans are currently “trapped” in our dimension. Only our present and our memories of the past are vivid to us.
People often try to limit Gods intrinsic values to their human fallible finite concepts. They rationalize and correctly realize the materials in the universe needed a creator considering it is a non-thinking “thing”. The Big bang couldn't create itself. The big bang couldn’t think. It couldn’t create order from chaos. Nature can’t design. As we all know, God can think, nature can’t. It is the self existent God who has created the things of nature.

(ref: Ryrie, Sproul, Henry)

jason78,
In the past I have noticed that an evo tactic is to type certain "facts"..because they think they sound good or right.

As to what is becoming or unbecoming of a christian...How would you know?

Thank you for a succinct answer to my question. I, however do not accept the bible as the inspired word of any deity so this argument does not really hold much weight.




As for the rather lengthy argument you provided, of whose authenticity I was unable to find an verification given the names of the presumed authors you provided, I must admit I am unable to make much sense of it or think of any reason as to why you provided it as evidence of God's eternal existance.

First of all, it is obvious that this argument does not appear in the bible so why you would provide it after saying, "Yes, the bible teaches God has always been there," is a mystery to me.

Now, to the meat of the argument. The entirety of it seems to be based on the assumption that, "God is self existent being who posseses intrinsically the power of being, not self created. He has his being of himself, and has no dependence upon any other," proof of which is never offered. It also includes the assumption that God must somehow be able to both be and not be at the same time since this is a requirement for God's existance not violate the law of contradiction. Not the mention the assumptions that, "God is without termination or finitude, He is free from the succession of time, He recognized a succession of events, but all past present and future events are equally vivid to Him." I really would like to know how the author(s) of this piece came to know so much about God.

Come to think of it, this argument is just one unwarranted assumption after another with a few logical fallacies thrown in for good measure; such as one of my favorites, the "ad populum" fallacy: "As we all know, God can think, nature can’t." All of which lends to me further confusion as to why you reproduced this argument in the first place.

And one more thing, isn't it against forum rules to simply reproduce an argument without offering any comment on it?

Your belief is not required for the Bible to be accurate. Which I'm sure you knew. Just as My dis-belief in the unproved ToE has no bearing on whether it occurred or not.

You asked the question. The answer was given. A question about any deity can only be answered within context of the writings concerning the religion based on the deity. Surely you must have expected the bible used to explain an aspect of God.

I will try to give an answer within the boundaries you seem to require. I desire to invent a new life form. I build a secure area and establish complete control over the contents and environment and any interaction with the exterior environment. There is no method for the life to form or the environment to affect me. Even my interaction is set in such a manner that I can maintain 100% one way contact and allow interaction which can be discontinued instantly.
The interior environment cannot affect me. Though simplistic in the extreme, that is why God is not affected, He is in control of all effects.

serenity2511,
Are you saying that the bible doesn't teach that God always existed?

You have no way out. Either the matter in the universe always existed...or it was created.

Lets assume that it was created. How would you go about showing that it was your particular god that created it and not some other god or natural process?

Prophecy. Biblical against any other source.

How can you have a prophecy about something that has already happened?

lwj2op2, you beat me to the punch. I was thinkinbg the same thing. Prophecy.
There's also the historical accurcy of the bible.

Jason, what about the prophecy that came true?

The Oracle at Delphi was said to be the home of some of the most accurate prophets of all time. It's also backed up by history. So how do you now choose between Zeus and Jesus?

Because if Zeus was real...he was created by Jesus.

If God truly transcends and permeates the entire physical universe, then what difference does it make whether I believe in him or not? Why do you think He insists that I believe in and worship Him if He cannot help but be a part of me?

Also, if God permeates the entire universe, what makes Christianity the one, true way of worshiping Him? If he is a part of everything, isn't the mere act of living enough worship?

I apologize for the tardiness of my response. I meant to respond to your post a few weeks ago.

serenity2511,
Once again, God is not a tree, or a rock...or you.
That is what the bible teaches.

Now God is omnipresent...he's there at the tree, rock and you, but He isn't the tree rock or you.

Now as one becomes a Christian, the Holy Spirit (God) comes and lives in you.