Question on YEC and pre first day.



Okay, God clearly made the earth before "THE LIGHT", the light was considered "DAY ONE", so therefore there was clearly a time before day one in which the earth existed.

In Short, What's Up with That?

In long, I just read Ikester's article on it at http://www.yecheadquarters.org/shame.14.html

Something about that whole concept of the effects of time being built into the materials of the earth, just don't sit right to me.

The reason this doesn't sit right with me is because of some prior teaches I have on tape from Dr. Tony Evans (my favorite preacher) That basically speculated, that some heavenly events took place between the creation of the earth and "Day One".

To summarize it went something like this:

In Genesis 3:1 We meet the Devil. Where did the Devil come from? Well we all know he was God's chief angel and he went bad with the whole "I will, I will, I will" stuff. So what did God do? God tossed him to the earth. There are a couple different verses including revelations that talk about God throwing Satan down, Dr. Evans goes on to elaborate about the different events and how Satan will take physical form in the tribulation, but all that is irrelevant.

So when did God Throw Satan to the earth? Well we know that he is already there in Genesis 3:1. So you can either speculate that Satan came to earth before or after day one.

Tony Evans goes on to take the description of the earth Pre-Day one (Formless, Void, and Dark) and speculates that this is obviously a place that Satan and his cronies have been hanging out in.

Then he goes on with his sermon how God is proving a major point by handing Satan's earth over to the humans and telling the humans to dominate. But that part about Pre-Day one has always stuck out in my mind.

What are your thoughts on that?

Some of your questions are answered here: http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/in...indpost&p=12845

As far as the link to my site goes. My site is part of a on going quest for truth. It changes as I test, research, and confirms findings in the word of God. The creation section is fixing to be reworked because of some new info that has panned out. Which means other sections of the site will change as well.

This page that goes into detail about time will be redone: http://www.yecheadquarters.org/Creation9.0.1.html

This page will change: http://www.yecheadquarters.org/Creation9.0.3.html

And this page will change: http://www.yecheadquarters.org/Creation9.0.4.html

It is because I am in the process of figuring out how eternity works. And because I now have the basics of it, it has revealed a lot more about how things work in creation. And how things work through salvation as well.

Which means this section of my site will be changing as well: http://www.yecheadquarters.org/osas.html

Okay, I'll look into those links.

On a side note. I absolutely love your site, I've been reading it for about 3 days straight. lol ... It is a lot and can get confusing with what page links to what and how all the topics connect. But the content is golden.
(the site map helps)

Keep it up Bro, Can't wait for the update, if you have an update mailing list, please add me.

The angels were created prior to the six days of creation.

JOB 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.

JOB 38:5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

JOB 38:6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone--

JOB 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

It seems as if the angels watched the creation process.



Satan was in the Garden of Eden in an unfallen condition.

EZE 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.

This means the fall of Satan happened after the six days of creation and day of rest.

I agree. One interesting speculation I’ve heard is this: God rested on the Sabbath, so the 7th day was Saturday. We know Eve did not conceive until after the fall, or else Cain would not have been born into sin. Based on the menstrual cycle, one could speculate Eve would have been able to conceive starting one week after her creation, and would have done so immediately. What day is before the 2nd Saturday? Friday the 13th. Of course this is mostly speculation, but interesting nevertheless.

Fred

Another possibility is that the Garden of Eden existed before day one. Where Lucifer was put in charge of the garden. After the fall God throws satan to the earth, than plants Man in the Garden, and tells the Man he is in charge of the Garden. Which is a big slap in the face to Satan.

There is a bit of a conflict with Satan Sinning and deceiving Eve, before God put him on trial for his "I will, I will, I will." Would God, not also put him on trial for Lying? I don't think it's reasonable to think that Satan's first sin was telling Eve to eat the apple and God let that slide. ya know?

Besides, Revelations talks about the Tree of life (also in the Garden) being in Heaven, (I'll have to look up that verse) but I think the Garden of Eden is something special that existed before this Earth was created.

4Jacks said:
"Another possibility is that the Garden of Eden existed before day one."

Can you support that with scripture?

Well I could find the verse in Revelation talking about people coming to see the "Tree of Life" in Heaven, after the tribulation and stuff

the tree of life is in the Garden of Eden, (I could find that in Genesis)

That would prove that God moves the Garden of Eden in the future, which means he could have moved from Heaven to earth in the first place.

Also Genesis mentions god Hiding the Garden of Eden from Adam and Eve. This could mean two things... He took the Garden Away or he boggled up Adam and Eve so they Could never find it.

I believe he took the Garden of eden away, simply becuase I don't believe it is currently on this earth. Also we know it is not destroyed becuase the Tree of life comes back into play in Revelations.

Would that suffice, if I looked up those scriptures for you?

Hi 4Jacks,

The Garden of Eden definitely was destroyed. See Ezekiel 31. It was very likely destroyed by the global flood. The garden also was not hidden from Adam & Eve and their decendants, it was guarded by cherubim (Gen 3:24).

Also, see this thread on the "Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil":

http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/in...p?showtopic=204

I hope you find it interesting.

Fred

Yeah definitely, it was interesting. I was mistaken about genesis, don't know where I got the notion that god "hide" the garden, but all the translations agree it's "guard"

I also never gave a lot thought to Ezekiel in relation to the garden. That was an interested read, I'mma have to digest it a little before I can really comment on it much.

But all that is really straying off topic.

Do you guys agree with my interpretation of Gen 1:1-5 that there is an undefined amount of time between the time the earth was created and the beginning of day One?

And if so, do you think it could have been a long time? Granted we will never really know this side of grace.


lol... i just noticed the link for Blue Letter Bible up top... I love that site.

No.

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. - Ex 20:11

There's no gap.

Fred

I find it rather difficult to assign meaning to something found once in the bible. Would this long time period be found elsewhere? A verse that supports it?
Fred found a verse in the 10 Commandments that supports no gap.

Can anyone support a pre-Adamic race with biblical reference?

Yeah, That's a tough one, I've been gnawing on that for a bit. Not sure where to rest with it.

It is my understanding that the bible talks about 3 Heavens, the sky, outerspace, and then whatever is beyond that, why god kinda lives, (knowing that he is everywhere)

This is the first time I ever thought about God creating the third Heaven at the same time he made outer space and the earth. Because Genesis 1 doesn't really mention that. We know from Genesis that God created the first and second heaven and all that is in them in six days. But Ex 20:11 says heavens, like it is all the heavens, not just 2 of the 3 heavens. So that is a tough one to come to grips with.



Ummm, personally I think every verse in the bible is relevant and factual, I don't think it's a good idea to dismiss something just because it's mentioned once.



WHAT??? Bro, I’m not talking anything about a race of people running around earth before Adam. I’m just asking how long you think Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 was. As I stated in my original post, Tony Evan speculates that It was a long enough period of time for some Angelic events to happen. (Do we all agree Angels were created before the earth?)

Really there is no denying the gap. The earth existed and God had enough time to hover of the surface of the waters, before the first day. The question is how old is the dirt and the water. Ex 20 pretty much states that it was right before the light.

Hmmm… I might have to write Tony Evans an letter or something, this is puzzling me.

That's not what I implied.

Every verse in the bible is relevant and factual....the problem comes when something is mentioned only once allowing for an increased chance in assignng the wrong relevance and facts to the verse.

On the other hand when other portions of scripture add to or support a verse you can have a pretty accurate meaning derived from it.

The Mormons have this problem when they create a whole peice of theology about baptizing for the dead from a single verse.

4jacks,
You need to read the second portion of post 4 where I mention Satan was in the Garden of Eden in an unfallen condition.

I responded to that in posts 6&8

Gen 3:24 - God did not hide Eden, He blocked the way.

A literal translation leads to the conclusion that Eden was present on Earth until the Flood. Where is it now? Buried? Your guess is as good as mine. No way to know.

Yeah, I see that now. But revelation still talks about the Tree of Life being in Heaven. So apparently God saved the tree of life without saving the entire garden. I'm assuming the tree of knowledge of good and evil also got destroyed.

There really is no way to know, like you said, but we do know that God does transfer things back and forth.


Anyway the orginal question this thread asked has been answered.
Was the earth created a long time before the beggining of day one? No

We just discovered that some of disagree on whether or not satan fell before or after the creation of Man.

Is heaven the only place that a "tree of life" can exist? What did it have to be transported to heven? In fact in heaven there are more than one "tree of life"

REV 22:2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Well, we know it existed on earth and it will exist in heavan. Why? Do you think it made a trip to hell or something?



I don't understand the question.



Verse please



Thanks! I was too lazy to look that up.

4jacks, How does one tree stand on each side of the river?

So you are suggesting that the bible contains a typo?

Interesting concept, but I think what Ezekiel saw in 47:7 is a more realistic picture.

Henry Morris wrote the following
Reference.

I'm sure there will be many trees around the river. However the bible is very clearly only speaks of one "tree of life"

To assume that there are more trees of life implies that the Bible contains a typo and mistakenly calls many trees a single tree.

As I stated before I believe the bible is inerrant. Meaning that it contains no typos or mistakes. You seem to disagree with that, which is a whole other debate which I rather not get into.

Somehow I doubt the tree acts like a bridge over the river. I think the Bible would have spelled that out rather than saying it is on each side of the river.

Is there any typos? Not in the original. In fact I think you are adding to Revelations by claiming the tree of Life bridges the river. At least I provided another peice of scripture that supports what I think in Ezekiel

To be honest I believe the "tree of Life" is a Genus name of tree while it has seperate species providing 12 kinds of fruit.

What? Dude, in all seriousness, there is a LOT of stuff that the bible just doesn't "Spell out"

The topic of what Heaven will be like is one of those things, only a little is given to us (Mostly on the new city).

It seems to me like you are reacting as if I'm introducing some profound new theology.



Okay lets look at the orginal greek...
I like to use blue letter bible.
Here is a link to Rev 22:2 in its original language
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.p...2&version=KJV#2

The word xulon is being translated as "THE TREE"
which is correct in a singular context.
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon...586&Version=kjv

This word xulon in the bible is always translated as a singular tree... this can be seen on the bottom of the link i just provided.

The greek word dendron is the only greek word to be translated as "TREES" plural.
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon...186&Version=kjv
you can also see this at the link provided




Whoa Back the boat up buddy, don't pass your baggage onto me. I am arguing for a literal interpretation of the bible from it's greek into english. You are the one saying it's plural trees and all this extra fancy translation stuff.

Also, please note, i'm not saying "the tree of life bridges the river" I just pulled up a random picture to show you the possibility of one tree. You are right, revelation doesn't spell it all out, so I only know what is given, ONE TREE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RIVER. I'm taking that as a literal translation.

Tony evans in his tape series speculates that the river literaly comes from under the tree and that is how it got on both sides. Whether the river comes from under it, or whether the tree bridges the river, I don't know, and it doesn't matter. But I do know it's one tree.



He's not talking about the tree of life, so it's a pretty weak support. I'm not arguing that there aren't Multiple trees in Heaven, I'm saying there is only one tree of life.



Trilobyte, Serious man, you just accused me of adding to the scriptures, and then you say something like this.

The bible says that the one tree bears 12 different fruits.

I know they have hybrid trees that can do that kinda stuff now, I'll ask my wife more about it later, she was a horticulturist.

You can buy them, they have a citrus one that grows, lemons, limes, oranges, grapefruits, and stuff like that. Very Neat.

With all due respect...a tree on both sides of the river sounds like two (2) trees. Sorry if you disagree.

Fred...what do you think?