I have an old friend who I've known for many years now. We lost touch with each other for nearly ten years, but recently I was blessed by finding him and contacting him. We had such awesome discussions that we both could feel our minds storing information! He is an Indian who has learned the old way and rejects the young cheifs on the reservation. These other cheifs are between the ages of 35 and 45, and are teaching the Newage version of what the Indians belief. But when one speaks to an Indian who still sticks to the old way one will learn that the Indians reject the NewAge interpretation of the Great Spirit and all love the Bible and believe that Jesus is the Son og God. Why do we celebrate Thanksgiving?!! The pilgrims and the Indians all had some important things in common. One of those things was that the Christian religion was the same religion of the Indian, but spoken in a different language and explained a little different. These Indians (or most of them) served a monotheistic God, the same God. The White Buffalo represents the day of Pentecost to these Indians and have no problem accepting Christ. (They poke fun of Mormonism because it is not true. Mormonism only appeals to the NewAge camp).

When I ask my Indian friend what he learned from the old cheifs about the age of the earth, he laughed and began to explain how evolutionists tell the story of their Indian ancestory without the approval of the Indian testimony of what the Indian says about themselves. This gets Indians very angry and they hate manipulators and do not tolerate such double-minded talk on reservations. The Indians agree that they have not been in America for nowhere near has long as evolutionists claim they were. In fact, they go on to agree that both the Indian and the white man should have already filled the world if evolution were true. Sure, America was filled with Indians spread out through the country, but the numbers of those Indians back then do not account for the evolutionary dating system and their own interpretation of when the Indians came to America. Seriously, if the earth is so old then white man should have filled America long before the 17th century! This is called compound interest and is hard evidence for a young earth. Nowhere in history do we see evolution theory at work or justified.

The Indians understand that it was not the words found in the Holy Bible that took their lives away from them. They know that it was not all white men that hated them. They know that the theory of evolution and the humanistic values that come natural through hate had turned many a white man into a racist. They saw the Indian has unevolved and too stupid to continue living. So the Indians lost more than their lands, their culture, their faith, and their human rights--indeed, they lost their very souls. The image and likeness of God in their race was taken right out of them, and thats by and large the main reason why there is so much alcoholism and drug abuse on Indian communities today.

The Indians record a great flood, believe in One monotheistic God, accept Jesus Christ without second guessing it and reveal the true meaning of why we celebrate Thanksgiving! So this year when you are with your families fulling your bellies with food and in your warm houses, remember why we celebrated thanksgiving in the first place and understand what believing that mankind evolved did to the Indian.

The belief that the earth is over 10,000 years old is not supported by a single reliable source of information. Its a philosophy that is refuted by compount interest. For the population of the Indian and the white will never account for the false dating system of evolutions who have made of killing teaching lie$.

One more thing.

As I was speaking to my Indian friend I began to conclude the mystery of the Indian-Christian connection and started to speak from the spirit (not white willow). While I was speaking I was seeing visions of those Indians that lost their lives and and saw into their minds and told my friend they were stripped of their very souls. When my friend heard this he was taken back in surprise and said, "Exactly!"

It was not just the land they greived over. It was the loss of their minds and souls. The very same thing is beginning to happen now with the same Darwinian push on the Chritsians who are being hunted and persecuted over the world right now. If you are a Christian but deny the Bible because OEC found ways to manipulate true knowable history and science, you need to know that evolution is a pratice of Satanism and will not be accepted by God when He returns for the great Day of Judgement.

"In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen.1:1).

This is the most fundamental and scientific statement in the entire Holy Bible. So we need to seriously understand what this verse means in terms of our faith in God.

"In the beginning..."

When? In the beginning of created space-time and earth (vs.2).

Who created? It was God! Or in Hebrew: YHWH Elohim (Elohim is vague for God; YHWH reflects a true personal Supernatural Being Who did something to our planet).

What did God do? Thats right; He CREATED CREATED CREATED!

If God "created the heavens and the earth" then He is directly responsible for what our existence.

The Bible also says that this same God created mankind! There is no suggestion that God used evolution (since it said that God created).

If OEC is correct the Genesis 1:1 verse should read as follows: In the beginning an chance accidently formed all things.

We don't need to read the entire Bible to know this; but if we do read the entire Bible from cover to cover we'll see that every single Prophet of God, and even Jesus, the Son of God, accepts Creation has an Absolute!

So to go on believing that life is an accient and that God is the force of chance is opposite if what the Bible says God said.

If you are an OEC person and you do have a true sincere faith in God, you need to pray to God and ask Him for the wisdom to overcome your doubt in His existence and He WILL RUN AFTER YOU out of LOVE.

Please understand that in my own life I've observed God working through me (and many others) and also answering my prayers. Everytime I suffered with doubt I prayed from deep within my soul and God ran.

Excellent post Origen! This was very interesting, I was not aware of the old view of Indians believing in a recent creation. I've heard that all Indian cultures have a global flood legend, but I was unaware of their disdain for evolution and belief in YEC. It also makes sense that the racism inherent (and well-established, as Gould and others have documented) with belief in evolution played a role in what happened to the Indian culture.

Nothing with evolution makes sense. If it were true the Indians are correct in pointing out that there should be some sort of equilibrium of all these people groups having homogenized over time, or at the very least some evidence that expands past 10,000 years of "white" men in America. Not only does this argue against evolution, but recorded history also supports a young earth, as does the lack of stone age graves - there should be countless numbers if millions of years is true, but we only find a few here and there. More calisthenics for the evolutionists.

Fred

im thinking you are assuming that the population follows an exponential curve. this is oversiplified.

when unaffected by outside factors, yes the population tends to build on itself, with the rate of increase of the population increasing on itslef. but you dont take into account outside effects, like wars, disease, availibility of food, etc., which severly affect a population.

a good example of this would be the black plage in the middle ages, which killed over 1/3 of the european population

Interesting post Origen, what religion and Tribe is your Indian friend, could you provide a link that describes the religion in question, I believe it would make fascinating reading.

On the contrary, all wars and death are accounted for. Even DR.Henry Morris did this research and came up with the poplation we have today through compound interest (estimated math work, of course).

Lets say, for example, that mankind has been roaming the earth for just 100,000 years (and not millions). Lets face it--and both evos and creationists agree--mankind is a horny being. We get turned on when the wind blows a certain way. Evolutionists believe in survival of the fittest, that the strongest brute-males will breed with the most healthy females. The Book of Genesis tells us that God commanded that mankind multiply and fill the earth. So there is a form of agreement in the argument that humans are horny beings. So knowing this, we can be certain that mankind were busy doing all the females and having childred from the get go. Now in 150-years the population of mankind will grow large enough where there will be a civilization of humans here and there. (Mesopotamia was such a place after the Flood.) In 100,000 years there will be many born and many will also die of old age and from wars and other causes of death. But here is where we can simplify without some exaggerated ad hoc assumption: In 100,000 years, billions have lived and died. Where are their bones? The amount of human fossils (supposedly discovered a few million ago) are not numerous enough to account for a human race that existed millions of years in the past--let along account for 100,000 years of human existence! The truth is simple: If whites and Indians were on the earth bredding and building their own civilizations over the earth, there is no doubt at all that America would have been discovered long before the 17th century! To confirm that, lets consider the population growth in America and also around the rest of the world. In some 200-years America has grown to a population of 300,000,000 (with the addition of 100,000,000 illegal mexicans!). The population explosions around the rest of world had to suffer WWI&II amongst other wars and plagues in the last 300-years.

This population is too small if we accept the evolution dating of mankind on the earth! In fact, if mankind has been walking this earth, even while (supposedly) still a hominid) there should be trillions of fossil bones from our present day down through the centuries of mankinds early existence...but there are not.

The Internet is not a place where one can learn about knowledge. In fact, wikipedia pushes a lot of already strongly refuted propaganda, and analyzes information with a political slant. The Indians that are on reservations do not care much about sharing their lives on the Internet. I have a friend who is an Indian (forgot the tribe) who is becoming a medicine man. If one really wants to know what the Indians say about themselves, one has to go where Indians are found. But be warned! If an atheist argues like most of them do on Internet forums, they will receive their first and last warning: "Shut up or die!" They say this to people who are child-molesters and people that are sick in mind--meaning; that they are not interested in what the Indians say about themselves, the atheist may only be seeking to twist what the Indian says so the atheist can $ell a book about the evolution of the Indian faith. Never speak the double-minded tone. Such a person is considered a threat to their lives and will be asked to seek mental and spiritual health.

I say this to you because the vast huge majority of atheist I've personally spoken to online like to be argumenntive, while rejecting every true explantion and demonstration and knowable law that there is in order to protect evolution from being exposed has the fraudulant pseudoscience it is. Maybe you're one of the nicer atheist and are truly looking to see whether ot not your current position is in check with absolute reality. I don't know. Nevertheless, if you want to understand the Indian culture the way is was, and avoid the NewAge (Hindu influenced) Indians who understand little about who they were, then you need to talk to sme Indians who are not NewAgers who also know their original background and still know how to live the way of the old way. The sewer we call the Internet is not a good place to find web pages on old religions. Almost every page is all from evolutionary commentators.

Another thing interesting is the asteroid crater in Arizona thats a mile in diameter. Evolutionists give their over-exaggerated date while the Hopi Indians have legend that the crater was formed 400-years ago.

? while the wiki is convenient, a public library or a university website might have more academic weight behind it.




I would think this is a common situation, indeed it is the profession of anthropologists to do as you have described, and record their lives for posterity.




In the long run, it all boils down to trust, between the person seeking knowledge and the person providing it. One safeguard is to have more than one person do the research, to highlight discrepancies and personal bias. The basic purpose of an anthropologist is to be a medium for facts, without letting personal bias, nor pass judgement upon the society he is investigating.



I am what I am, I oppose YEC when it attacks science, and I consider my self a bit of an armchair philosopher, that’s about as deep as I go. Experience has taught me to question statements, and your fist post surprised me somewhat, The only American religion that I can recall having such a parallel was Cortés encountering the Aztec’s in Mexico (a white prophet was expected, and Cortés seemed to fit the bill).




I feel horribly confused at this point, are you referring to American Indian or Asian Indians in your first post? I am not aware of any Asian Indian (Hindu) influence on native American culture, as these cultures could not possible have met to well after European settlement or North and South America.



Unfortunately it is about the only medium we can share in this forum, other than your recollections of the conversations you have had.

Indeed Barringer Crater from the wiki a gap of 37,000 years before human habitation.

It is common practice for all human societies to have explanations of “how natural formations were created”

Number one, I had a debate on another website where I was able to prove without a doubt that wikipedia is not a reliable source of information. I deny all wiki-info because its not a...boock

Wiki caters to your own personaol view so you think its an academic thing to cite. But when the information is challenged it crumbles down like the walls of Jericho.

Moreover, the Indians claim to be eyewitnesses of all this, so what gives evolutionists the right to call their testimony a lie when they were not even there?

1- Always use library and university information from the top of the line.

2- Evolutionists have to try to fit evolution with world history. However, Hellhausen failed and has been thoroughly refuted and is now considered a fluke of science.

3- Why must we Christians keep repeating what has been a pinned topic on this site? Modern science was established by Christians and even is still continued by Christians. Evolution is not science because it violates knowable scientific principles.

4- I was speaking about the North American Indians. Thats why I mentioned Thanksgiving. And keep in mind that there is a Sumerian story (I forgot the name right off hand but I have the text at home) that mentions the thunderbird. Ironically, the North American Indians also have the same legend. Even though their beliefs differ, they still have some middle eastern views.

The compound interest cannot be refuted. It may be debunked by a political atheist...but not refuted. Compound interest is checkmate for humanity living on the earth for the length of time evolutionists claim they were. In order to do so they have to call every ancient nation and tribe a liar just to protect their humanistic values and politics. Now does it make sense to be an atheist when there is zero evidence that man evolved?

Dood why the hostility, all this from a simple request for a link so that I could read up on an Indian legend.

boock (book)? do you claim books are more reliable? How are you able to tell?




I use Wiki because it is convenient, and as many YEC members here have often expressed views that the Talk Origin website is biased, I feel wiki is a reasonable compromise. So, if you can point me to something else I will gladly check it out.

How do you know that they did not just make it up? Or, that was once known to be a fanciful explanation become absorbed into folk law. if the crater is younger then the evidence will confirm it.

Good, re your Indian friend story about his religious history, what would you recommend?



? This is a rather bizarre answer to my point to regarding an anthropologist job description. I don’t understand the point you are making, nor what is a Hellhausen.



why? because I dispute the second part of your claim i.e. that Evolution is not science because it violates knowable scientific principles . Moreover, it is the very purpose of this forum to debate such topics, from the opening sentence in the forum rules .



Interesting, but I would think it far more likely to be a coincidence than a common origin of single historical event.



Sorry you’ve lost me on this one, are you referring to compound interest in a monitory way? what if anything has this to do with any of the topics we have been discussiong?

Please tell me what tribe and where they are located? Also, I would prefer it if you all would stop saying that all North American Indians believe in one god or is alternate Christian or they do not like Oec because one person believes so. There are currently 336 federally recognized tribes (http://www.artnatam.com/tribes.html). This is not including the many tribes not federally recognized nor the tribes that have died out. In the Navajo cosmology, there is no one god, if I have the Admin's permission I will tell you what i was taught. Within the Navajo tribe there are many clans and many of them have thier own origen story.

You say Indians as though we are all one people but we are not. Many anthropologist have tried to categorize us but also find come to the same conclusion. Each tribe is too far different to generalize. Take the Northeastern Tribes around the Washington state area. They are LOOSELY grouped even though each tribe has it's own distinctly different origin story. They are more grouped by what they fish and what was available.

You say they were quick to adopt religion well I'll ask you a question. If your choices were to keep your religion and starve or to assimulate and be fed, what would you choose? You must understand that with incoming amount of people, there was a shrinking amount of land, which lead to a lessened amount of animals and crop space. People intermarried and Indians marriend white woman, thus the family's religion became Christian (which there is nothing wrong with this, and I think is pretty cool). I don't really have a problem with Indian adopting Christian religion, it's when they had no choice but to do it to survive or were beatened for practicing one's religion... well there is just something wrong with that.

One more thing. Read any book about the boarding schools on the reservation and you'll see what being ripped of one's identity and soul looks like.

You must also understand the nature of Indian religion and beliefs. They are stories passed down from parent to child. ORAL stories, they are spoke and memorized by ear. There was no written language of native americans until within the last 150 years. Once a language has been set in written form, it becomes slow to change. Without a written form the Indians became diversified faster then, say, the European countries. In fact this is shown there as well as many people hated the influence of McDonalds, a friend of mine used to talk about how you could go on a trail and visit 10 villages, each with it's own "culture" in the sense of fashion, foods, and customs. Yet each were less then 10 miles apart. The United States went from a place with 50 different foods and styles to having the ability to buy a twinkie and a coke all across the nation. So it's easy to assume all those under one name are all the same. I use to think all white people were WASP's, I had no idea about roman catholic, christians, mormans, etc. I explain this part to show you that no one can generalize "Indians". The Navajos are not the Apache, the Apache are not the Cherokee, and the Cherokee are not Creek.

And please, any religion or belief which has two groups of people, us and them, will lead people to believe us is better then them. So stating evolution is to blame for people thinking one is better then the other is the same as saying religion is to blame. Really? the truth? One person wanted something and was willing to kill/cheat/lie for it and found a way to justify his/her action(for his family, his country, his religion, for himself).

So again, please tell me what tribe your friend was from and where he lives? Also could you please tell me more (even in a PM) what his origin story is?

First of all I've stated a clear case here about the migration of Indians and the compound interest of population cenus.

Secondly, my friend is an Indian through and through and knows the old way very well and is more then honest about the beliefs of Indians. He did tell me about the NewAge Indians who do not respect the truth of the Indian ways and have adapted to evolutionary thought and the like. He does not listen to them and will only learn from the older cheifs in their 90s and up.

Third, this is the Internet and I will not just give out the location of him or his tribe so that humanists can track him down and kill him or hurt him and his tribe. After all, its the theory of evolution that hurt the Indians, not the faith in Christ. General Custard was an atheist...not a Christian.

Fourth, I know what evos say about Indian religions and they agree with you. Thats the problem. The Indians of the old way do not accept the false testimony if evolutionists concerning the origin of Indian.

Well, I gotta go. My friend is here and its time to play chess!!

I read a news report on Yahoo, iirc, sometime back, that a Japanese computer scientist developed a program that ran the human race reproductive clock backwards. He failed to allow for the Biblical wars, I believe, but did allow for Noah's Flood, the Black Plague and the World Wars, Korea and Vietnam

His results were that there were less than 10 people on the planet, 5-6 thousand years ago.

I should look to see if I can find it again.

Budd

Origen, please listen. Claiming you're afraid humanists will track down your friend is just plain silly. Neither Evolution nor the belief in Christ harmed the native americans; it was general apathy and manifest destiny. Please show a source that indicates Custer was an atheist. All the accounts I have seen indicate that he was a religious man.

Also, regarding the crater...you called Evolutionist's claims exaggerated, and then said that the native americans have their own -legend- concerning it. You do realize that a legend is rarely true, yes?

As for their being zero evidence man evolved, well, that's true...

If you don't want it to be there and refuse to accept the possibility it's there.

I hate to say this, but where I currently live (S.E. Utah) is close to the Hopi / Navajo reservations. I have worked with and am close friends with several from both nations. And, being part Amerind, I have enjoyed many discussions about Amerind histories and traditions.

Both nations support the approximate 400 years since the impact in their histories.

Who is to be believed? Someone from far away with a pet theory to prove and that only dug up a few stones in the crater or the histories of people that live in the area?

Who do you believe? A record of people from the time in question or someone that is only observing the after effect?

Budd

You are well aware that European racism, whether against Amerindians or against Africans or any other race, well predates evolution theory? While you're right that the Bible nowhere endorses racism, this doesn't mean Christians can't be racists. In every epoch, people of every religion have fallen afoul of racism, Christians of the 18th century as well as victorian darwinists or modern muslims.

The internet is "free", everyone can put his views here for all to see without getting censored. There are a lot of websites on old religions, there are a lot of creationist websites... while I can understand that you are sceptic towards Wikipedia, that only allows for one view, I think your refusal to cite any internet sources where one could get more information on the religious views of "Non-New-Age Amerindians" doesn't really contribute to an "informed discussion".

My Indian friend is from the same tribe that killed the famous atheistic General Custard. A Cherokee. I have a smidge of Sue Indian in me so we get along pretty well when we get the chance to talk. He's a smart guy and an expert on snakes. I've gone out searching for snakes with him before and he finds them so easily! I am not going to state his name and address because by law I do not have to. Now my friend has learned from the really old Indian Chiefs about the old Indian beliefs vs. the popular NewAge Indian beliefs. He says he don't listen to the younger chiefs because they are more into the Hindu Indian than the Cherokee Indian beliefs. He says that the Chrisitian faith is actually the same faith has the Cherokee---and he detest NewAgers, keep that in mind. He does have his share of complaints about the local Christiains and like to humble them when they get ouot of line with their holier than thou attitude backed up with no real moral actions. He respects the Bible has truth and says, "You'd have to be crazy not to believe Jesus is not the Son of God." He says that the White Buffalo represents the pouring of the Holy Spirit in the Indian terms of language. He also says that the Great Spirit represents an Eternal, monotheistic God; not just nature or the universe like in NewAge pantheism. He still does the sun dance., but this is done for tradition and it doesn't mean that they deny the One true God--they've lived by His moral standard! He also firmly states that evolutionists are insane to think that the American Indians have been on the Contenant for as long has evolutionists have claimed. He's YEC all the way! I trust what he says because I know his heart has changed into a very nobel and wise charactor. I've known him for years and I know every sin he's suffered from in the past. But he is a man, a warrior now, a future Chief of the great Cherokee nation which will return...will return, will return, will return, will return....

I think the Cherokee nation is making their come back by refuting the lies that enslaved them from the beginning. That is how they think. They are not irrational animals like evos have claimed they were. They never blame an entire race for what happened to them. They know the teachings of Jesus Christ didn't enslave them to their reservations. They know what happened and those to blame were those who believe that man is just another animal, nothing special. Even the Indians knew they were not animals! Just because they lived in nature doesn't mean that they were part of the animal kingdom. They were humans Created by the Great Spirit (from the orthodox definition, not the NewAge one).

Evolutionists write their pseudohistory on the North American Indian tribes. But the Indians themselves do not agree with their presumptions and tell another story--the same story of Creation found in the Bible, spoke through the Indian tongue and the way they express them.

I hope I didn't say too much. I know that the Humanist Manifesto has their own secret police in America. This is not some conspiracy theory I'm making up...I'm living that terror right now!! It is something that will become a very big issue for Americans in the coming near future. If Americans were smart, they would stand up and extremely large protest rallys and protest the control evolutionists AND the Bush Administration has over the public. Between the two of them our country has become a living terror.

I know this is off-topic, but I think I'm not voting this year. There is no one worth the vote!! Hillary is the best choice and that is an insult to America! If WE Americans want to live in the true, free America, we're going to have to stop dumbing down to the neocons of the Supreme Court Injustice and the White House.

There's a secret humanist consipracy? Please!

Well you wouldn't expect an evolutionist to admit to it would you?!?

I'm not an evolutionist. I'm an Atheist. There is a difference

Of course - didn't you make it to the last meeting? I will send you a welcome packet but *Sshh* keep it secret.

Wasn't it the Sioux who killed Custer? (Allied with the Cheyenne)

Yes, it was a few tribes. Sitting Bull was the Sioux cheif who arranged for Custard to die that day.

At the time of the discovery of America there were just under one million Indians spread throughout the country. Now if evolution dating was true there should have been billions of them, at least several millions--but thats not the facts in the case. Evolution is thoroughly discredited once we take a knowable look into knowable history. The time and figures just are not there. The only thing that keeps evolution in the public schools is politics.